I dont under stand GAS PRICES?

[CableGuy]

Technology has advanced so much in the last 10 years... let alone the last 30. Look at the following bullshit and try to make sense of it. Maybe an old generation can explain some of this to me (us).

Gas prices today ~2.50-3.50 a gallon in the US

You can see here that Crude oil is ~73 dollars a barrel:

http://www.wtrg.com/daily/clfclose.gif

If you look at the following you'll see the price of crude oil over the last 70 years. Now look closely, in the early 1980 crude was ~ 65 dollars a barrel. YET, if you look at the following gasoline was only 1.30.

http://www.1980sflashback.com/1982/Economy.asp


http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif


So are you going to try and pull the supply and demand shit out??

Before you pull that out of your ass like everyone else please explain why OIL was sooooo expensive but gasoline was so cheap compared to today. 65/1.30 to 72/3.00

Look at the cost of a gallon on MILK in the 1980's... 2.24!! HOLY SHIT! I’m sure there are a lot more residents of the US now then in the 80's and somehow the DAIRY industry has adjusted. How much is milk today? Between 1.99 and 2.99 usually... Talk about gouging! :dontknow:

So the supply issue.....

http://www.wtrg.com/rigs_graphs/world/rigwld.gif

There is a pic of active oil rigs in the world.

http://www.wtrg.com/rigs_graphs/rigus.gif

That is a pic of active rigs that the US control/run.

Why the HUGE drop in rig counts from 81 to 87?

Also it seems that oil prices seemed to follow rig counts almost exactly the same from 81 ALLLLL the way to ~01. And then since then oil has tripled? Why?

Trade/transport/tech/ has all advanced in the past 20 years greatly along with the use of oil.

I just don’t understand how the **** these companies can say what they say and bank MORE THAN $10,000,000,000 in a quarter of 1 year. :icon_eek:


Ohh and one more thing that really pisses me off about oil companies and the government.

This new e85 cost on average like 1.30 to produce and then ship, WHY IS IT SELLING FOR the same price as gas????? WTF?:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:

Will we ever escape this ring around, heavily taxed BULLSHIT?

[L98Terror]

Well you have some great points here and we may need to look at it point to point.


First The price of oil itself is determined on the trading floor The New York Mercantile exchange which didn't start trade oil until 1983. I don't know what they did before that.

Let's look at the cost of Gas

Gallon of gas

Today according to the Detroit free press

Let's use $3.00 a gallon

Cost break down
50% ish is crude oil or $1.50
Then there is refining, transportation & taxes

In Michigan you pay 52.4 cents in gas tax up to $2.02

Refining cost 20% or $0.60 : $2.62
Delivery & Marketing 9% or $0.27 : $2.89
I assume gas station profit 0.11:dontknow: : $3.00


Now how about the costs in 1980s??

We do know the state mandated formulas have change since 1980 and so have the EPA standards what were the taxes on a gallon of gas in 1980s were going to nedd a lot more info to get to the bottom of this.

[L98Terror]

Technology has advanced so much in the last 10 years... let alone the last 30. Look at the following bullshit and try to make sense of it.

I'm thinking not much has changed in the refinery business since there hasn't been a new refinery built in over 20 years, but the cost to refine has increased due to state formula standards (different for each state) and EPA standards & cost of living (wages, rent, utilities)


Historical Gas Prices
(Adjusted for inflation)

Year Price Per Gallon
1950 $1.91
1955 $1.85
1960 $1.79
1965 $1.68
1970 $1.59
1975 $1.80
1980 $2.59
1985 $1.90
1990 $1.51
1995 $1.28
2001 $1.66
2002 $1.31
2003 $1.52
2004 $1.79
2005 $2.28
2006 (so far) $3.03

[L98Terror]

The United States consumes an average of 20 million barrels of oil per day (bbl/d, according to the Department of Energy. Of that, about 45 percent is used for motor gasoline. The rest is used for distillate fuel oil, jet fuel, residual fuel and other oils. Each barrel of oil contains 42 gallons (159 L), which yields 19 to 20 gallons (75 L) of gasoline. So, in the United States, something like 178 million gallons of gasoline is consumed every day.

Assuming you can use all 42 gallons then 19.5 goes to gas or 47%
@ 65 the cost for what is used for gas is $30.18/19.5=$1.55 just for the oil something is wrong

[L98Terror]

It's suppy and demand

Your numbers are all flawed the numbers in the charts are in 2004 dollars yet the numbers from 1983 you cite are in 1983 dollars your missing 21 years of inflation

[L98Terror]

Look at the cost of a gallon on MILK in the 1980's... 2.24!! HOLY SHIT! I’m sure there are a lot more residents of the US now then in the 80's and somehow the DAIRY industry has adjusted. How much is milk today? Between 1.99 and 2.99 usually... Talk about gouging!

They use steroids in cows now so the produce more milk

[L98Terror]

Why the HUGE drop in rig counts from 81 to 87?


Back to supply and demand as oil prices fall they take rigs of line because at certain prices the cost to get oil is more than they can sell it for. As prices go up it makes since to put more rigs online, depending on where and how they get the oil it affects the cost oil getting the oil. As prices go up it make sense to get oil from more places,.

[Sean124]

Assuming you can use all 42 gallons then 19.5 goes to gas or 47%
@ 65 the cost for what is used for gas is $30.18/19.5=$1.55 just for the oil something is wrong

42 gallons all of it. Ha they get roughly 96 gallons of fuel due to exspansion. I have a petroleum engineering friend that works at exxon that says depending on the catalyzing process setup they can go 60/40 gasoline or diesel either way depending on how the intially crack the barrel.

[L98Terror]

42 gallons all of it. Ha they get roughly 96 gallons of fuel due to exspansion. I have a petroleum engineering friend that works at exxon that says depending on the catalyzing process setup they can go 60/40 gasoline or diesel either way depending on how the intially crack the barrel.

So your saying the dept of energy data is wrong?

[Sean124]

So your saying the dept of energy data is wrong?

Depends on light/medium/heavy crude but there is alot of exspansion from raw oil to refined gasoline. Yes the DEO is telling a big fat lie. In fact good quality heavy crude can make 120g of fuel products if cracked correctly.

[L98Terror]

Depends on light/medium/heavy crude but there is alot of exspansion from raw oil to refined gasoline. Yes the DEO is telling a big fat lie. In fact good quality heavy crude can make 120g of fuel products if cracked correctly.

I'm calling :bs: There is no way you are getting 120g from 44g please make me feel stupid I've now from three different sources that you can only get around 19-20 gallons of gasoline.


Crude oil is measured in barrels. A barrel of 42-U.S. gallons of crude oil yields slightly more than 44 gallons of petroleum products. This "process gain" of volume is due to a reduction in the density during the refining process. In 2004, one barrel of crude oil, when refined, yielded 19.7 gallons of finished motor gasoline, as well as smaller quantities of many other petroleum products.

Petroleum Products Yielded from
One Barrel of Crude, 2004
Product Gallons
Finished Motor Gasoline 19.65

Distillate Fuel Oil 10.03
Kero-Type Jet Fuel 4.07
Residual Fuel Oil 1.72
Still Gas 1.85
Petroleum Coke 2.18
Liquefied Refinery Gas 1.68
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.34
Naptha for Feedstocks 0.67
Other Oils for Feedstocks 0.55
Lubricants 0.46
Special Naphthas 0.13
Kerosene 0.17
Miscellaneous Products 0.17
Finished Aviation Gasoline 0.04
Waxes 0.04

Total 44.77

[Sean124]

I'm calling :bs: There is no way you are getting 120g from 44g please make me feel stupid I've now from three different sources that you can only get around 19-20 gallons of gasoline.


Go ahead and call BS i will see if i can get him to chime in but due to his emploeyer i doubt he will.Either way you might only get 20gallons of gasoline out of crude but where it the rest of the oil going ?Don;t tell me its not being used. My advice to you would be to do some reading on the the actuall refining process.

[L98Terror]

Go ahead and call BS i will see if i can get him to chime in but due to his emploeyer i doubt he will.Either way you might only get 20gallons of gasoline out of crude but where it the rest of the oil going ?Don;t tell me its not being used. My advice to you would be to do some reading on the the actuall refining process.

Did you not read my whole post?

BTW I did and that what I came up with your the one that says I'm wrong but can't come up with anything to back that statement up. I never said I am always right and have been proven wrong more than once on this board I'm just asking for some verification of the facts be I go repeating it.

Crude oil is measured in barrels. A barrel of 42-U.S. gallons of crude oil yields slightly more than 44 gallons of petroleum products. This "process gain" of volume is due to a reduction in the density during the refining process. In 2004, one barrel of crude oil, when refined, yielded 19.7 gallons of finished motor gasoline, as well as smaller quantities of many other petroleum products.

Petroleum Products Yielded from
One Barrel of Crude, 2004
Product Gallons
Finished Motor Gasoline 19.65

Distillate Fuel Oil 10.03
Kero-Type Jet Fuel 4.07
Residual Fuel Oil 1.72
Still Gas 1.85
Petroleum Coke 2.18
Liquefied Refinery Gas 1.68
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.34
Naptha for Feedstocks 0.67
Other Oils for Feedstocks 0.55
Lubricants 0.46
Special Naphthas 0.13
Kerosene 0.17
Miscellaneous Products 0.17
Finished Aviation Gasoline 0.04
Waxes 0.04

Total 44.77

[Sean124]

Did you not read my whole post?

BTW I did and that what I came up with your the one that says I'm wrong but can't come up with anything to back that statement up. I never said I am always right and have been proven wrong more than once on this board I'm just asking for some verification of the facts be I go repeating it.


Are those figures based on light crude and when did a barrel of oil go from 55g to 44 ?

[L98Terror]

Depends on light/medium/heavy crude but there is alot of exspansion from raw oil to refined gasoline. Yes the DEO is telling a big fat lie. In fact good quality heavy crude can make 120g of fuel products if cracked correctly.


These increasingly stringent standards would reduce the yield of gasoline and diesel per barrel of crude even if the quality of the crude inputs were not declining. Starting with heavier, sourer crudes means even lower yields of gasoline and diesel.

source (http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2005/08/sweet_and_sour.html)
According to this source heavier crudes yield even less gasoline the light crude and they can't refine heavy sour crude in the USA, you must have miss understood you friend or I'm getting some real bad info :dontknow:

[L98Terror]

Are those figures based on light crude and when did a barrel of oil go from 55g to 44 ?
Crude oil is sold between countries in quantities called barrels. (The same measurement is used to sell whisky.)
Which is 42 gallons:dontknow: Always has been


What's in a barrel of oil (http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html)

[L98Terror]

Are those figures based on light crude and when did a barrel of oil go from 55g to 44 ?
A Drum holds 55g

A confusing unit of measure is a barrel. A barrel's capacity is determined often by who uses the term, or what it contains.

For example:

1 barrel (bbl) of petroleum or related products = 42 gallons. Why "bbl"?

1 barrel of Portland cement is 375 pounds.

1 barrel of flour - 196 pounds.

1 barrel of pork or fish - 200 pounds.

1 barrel of (US) dry measure is 3.29122 bushels or 4.2104 cubic feet.

A barrel may be called a "drum", but a drum usually holds 55 gallons!

1 barrel going over Niagara Falls was big enough to carry a man


http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/barrel.html

[Sean124]

A Drum holds 55g



http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/barrel.html

hmmm all very fishy. I will have to find some older documentation. Secondly you get Alot more fuel out of heavy crude becuase there are more hydrocarbon chains to break down into gasoline.

[Slowclean5.0]

:popcorn:

[patman]

:popcorn:

patman

[L98Terror]

hmmm all very fishy. I will have to find some older documentation. Secondly you get Alot more fuel out of heavy crude becuase there are more hydrocarbon chains to break down into gasoline.

I can't find anything that says heavy crude produces alot more gasoline, but I do know that heavy crude is cheaper to get and more expensive to refine so if it does it can't be much.

"Most of the extra production coming from Saudi Arabia is heavy high-sulphur crude which refineries just do not want because it is more expensive to process," said Evers.

"They (the Saudis) have been offering huge price discounts in the States for their heavy crude, but people have not been buying it. It is much more difficult to turn heavy crude into gasoline than light sweet."

Recent hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico caused shutdowns of sophisticated US refineries set up to handle heavy crude from Venezuela.




Light sweet crude has its advantages. Light oil, compared with medium and heavy, is more easily refined into a high percentage of high-value products such as gasoline. And "sweet" oil contains less sulphur than sour does, and sulphur must be removed to meet environmental regulations. As a result, heavy sour costs more to refine, meaning its producers must offer it at a discount off the price of light sweet crude.

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/2005/10/130-heavy-crude-refining-capacity.html

[L98Terror]

Depends on light/medium/heavy crude but there is alot of exspansion from raw oil to refined gasoline. Yes the DEO is telling a big fat lie. In fact good quality heavy crude can make 120g of fuel products if cracked correctly.


BTW by definition heavy crude is low quality The words "light" and "heavy" describe a crude oil’s density and its resistance to flow (viscosity). Some, which are low in metals and sulfur content, light in color and consistency, and flow easily, are known as "light." Less expensive, low-grade crude oils, which are higher in metals and sulfur content, and must be heated to become fluid, are known as "heavy."

It's call heavy because of the higher levels of metals and sulfur & I've found no evidence that heavy crude produces more gasoline then light crude only that it is cheaper to buy and more expensive to refine.


My advice to you would be to do some reading on the the actuall refining process. There is nothing worse then someone that will sit there and feed you :bs: with a straight face and try to make people feel like they don't know what they are talking about. I've met you a few times and have heard nothing but good things about your shop and your business practices but come on :WTF

This has been a good discussion because I've learned a lot but don't tell me to read up on the facts when you don't even know the size of a barrel of oil is. You have yet to legitimately dispute anything that have posted in this thread if you have better info please post it up I get involved in these threads to learn not to get in a pissing match or be told I know nothing from someone who knows even less on the topic.

[patman]

:spank:

patman

[Sean124]

BTW by definition heavy crude is low quality

It's call heavy because of the higher levels of metals and sulfur & I've found no evidence that heavy crude produces more gasoline then light crude only that it is cheaper to buy and more expensive to refine.


There is nothing worse then someone that will sit there and feed you :bs: with a straight face and try to make people feel like they don't know what they are talking about. I've met you a few times and have heard nothing but good things about your shop and your business practices but come on :WTF

This has been a good discussion because I've learned a lot but don't tell me to read up on the facts when you don't even know the size of a barrel of oil is. You have yet to legitimately dispute anything that have posted in this thread if you have better info please post it up I get involved in these threads to learn not to get in a pissing match or be told I know nothing from someone who knows even less on the topic.


Yeah so a petroleum engineer with 2 phd's who actuall refines gasoline for a living is feeding Me bullshit. The outcome of the refining process and i talked to him last night is that the figures your qouting is based on distilation refining which is magnitudes less efficient then catalyst cracking.catalyst cracking is more exspensive though When i get some time this morning i am going to research into detial the exact difference in output and conversion and put the matter to rest. And if i am wrong then i will admit so.

Instead of a new post as i have time i am going to keep updating this one. here are some basics on the catalyst refining process.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining5.htm

http://www.tstctech.com/Refining/default.htm

I am looking around for refining efficiencys right now.I am going to try to get the petroleum engineer to chim in.

[Slowclean5.0]

:popcorn: :shots: :wackit: :puke:



It's gettin good now!

[CableGuy]

Back to supply and demand as oil prices fall they take rigs of line because at certain prices the cost to get oil is more than they can sell it for. As prices go up it makes since to put more rigs online, depending on where and how they get the oil it affects the cost oil getting the oil. As prices go up it make sense to get oil from more places,.


Why?? Either way they are making money selling it... its just how much money do they want to make? 50billion a year? (PROFIT!)

You cant say there was/wasnt a huge demand prior to that huge drop, someone or something passed/was passed a "way to control the world, because 99.9% of the world needs oil", so lets cut the rigs in half and really start to shovel in the money.

As prices go up it make sense to get oil from more places,.


Then why isnt it back @ the 4500rigs world wide with oil 25 bucks a barrel?:dontknow:

If our goverement doesnt get anything out of this, then why dont they do something?

OIL COMPANYS are all reporting profits of 4 billion or more each quarter (traded companys). All I read about is the tax cuts these oil tycoons are recieving over the last 8 years.

Something like this bring "monopoly" to mind. Controlling 1 product and in this case making BILLIONS of dollars off of it.

They were quick to jump on microsoft after a couple years of multi MILLION, not billion dollar YEARS of proit.:dontknow:

[L98Terror]

Yeah so a petroleum engineer with 2 phd's who actuall refines gasoline for a living is feeding Me bullshit. The outcome of the refining process and i talked to him last night is that the figures your qouting is based on distilation refining which is magnitudes less efficient then catalyst cracking.catalyst cracking is more exspensive though When i get some time this morning i am going to research into detial the exact difference in output and conversion and put the matter to rest. And if i am wrong then i will admit so.

Instead of a new post as i have time i am going to keep updating this one. here are some basics on the catalyst refining process.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining5.htm

http://www.tstctech.com/Refining/default.htm

I am looking around for refining efficiencys right now.I am going to try to get the petroleum engineer to chim in.


OK

I can say I've learned way more about this topic then I ever wanted to know.

Very few of the components come out of the fractional distillation column ready for market. Many of them must be chemically processed to make other fractions. For example, only 40% of distilled crude oil is gasoline; however, gasoline is one of the major products made by oil companies. Rather than continually distilling large quantities of crude oil, oil companies chemically process some other fractions from the distillation column to make gasoline; this processing increases the yield of gasoline from each barrel of crude oil.

Even with chemical processing I would like to see how it is possible to heavy crude can make 120g of fuel products if cracked correctly. Even if you take one 70 carbon strand and turn it into 7 10 carbon strands you still only have 70 carbons I guess gas is less dense but 3 times:dontknow:

I'm not saying your friend is 100% wrong but if he is right you should be able to have some documatation to the fact, and we are discussing current methods not some shit they aren't doing on a wide scale yet because that would be irrevelant to this discusion.

Now if you read this http://www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/4/chemistry/petroleum/knowl/4/cracking.html

The catalytic cracker takes a number of feedstocks, including heavy gas oil, treated fuel oil and residue from the lubricant treatment plant.

The feedstock is mixed with a hot catalyst and passes up through the reaction vessel (shown on the right in the picture). The catalyst allows the cracking reaction to take place at a relatively low temperature (about 500°C).

The products pass out of the top of the reactor vessel (you can see the pipe in the picture) to a fractionating column to be separated. About 20% of the product goes into petrol. The rest are lighter hydrocarbons which pass into the refinery processes.

The catalyst flows back into the regenerator on the left where it is reheated to burn of the carbon ready for another round of catalysing.

You get the impression that cracking takes a long strands of carbons like Heavy gas oil which is the feed stock and produces pertal (gasoline) but only 20% is gasoline the rest is wasted. Which is much less efficient.:dontknow:

[2001-WS6]

Why?? Either way they are making money selling it... its just how much money do they want to make? 50billion a year? (PROFIT!)

You cant say there was/wasnt a huge demand prior to that huge drop, someone or something passed/was passed a "way to control the world, because 99.9% of the world needs oil", so lets cut the rigs in half and really start to shovel in the money.

Then why isnt it back @ the 4500rigs world wide with oil 25 bucks a barrel?:dontknow:

If our goverement doesnt get anything out of this, then why dont they do something?

OIL COMPANYS are all reporting profits of 4 billion or more each quarter (traded companys). All I read about is the tax cuts these oil tycoons are recieving over the last 8 years.

Something like this bring "monopoly" to mind. Controlling 1 product and in this case making BILLIONS of dollars off of it.

They were quick to jump on microsoft after a couple years of multi MILLION, not billion dollar YEARS of proit.:dontknow:
It's called Return on Investment. I want to get the most profit out of every dollar that I spend on production over time. If I only have enough people to run 10 wells and I have 20 wells that with 10 that can pay me $2 each and 10 that can pay me $1 each. I'll run the 10 $2 wells right?

Now through in R&D and say that I have a project that might find me a $3-$4 well for use next year. Guess what, I'm probably going to shut down one of my $2 wells this year in the hopes of getting that $4 well online next year.

So the laws of resource contraints and the desire to provide the best ROI as well as Profit margins is what helps a business make these decisions on how to use productive assets.

The government actually pays out to that future development work in terms of R&D tax credits and explorations credits. They are supporting that quest to find that $4 well because oil is a key resource in our economy. These are the same government folks that pay the dairy farmers not to produce milk in order to preserve our farming capacity for future needs.

Microsoft wasn't investigated until they were making Billions of profit. Again, the oil industry makes about $1 for every $10 it costs to makes and deliver their product. Microsoft makes $3.50 for every $10 it costs to deliver their product. It's safe to assume that Microsoft losses close to 50% of their potential sales due to piracy which would put them at 1/2 the totals profit dollars of Exxon on about 20% of the sales. That will give you an adjustment of was the scope will be once Microsoft finally get's their big brother hooks into every PC with their O/S licensing "enabling". :)

Rick

[little2v]

Reality is that it is totally a case of supply and demand. As well as people bitching, over something they do have control over and choose to not do anything about.

For example, take my truck... (numbers are simplifed of course)

- It gets on average 15 mpg or so.
- I drive sometimes 1,500 miles a month, so I consume 100 gallons of gas per month.

That said, the difference between $2.50/gallon and $3.00/gallon is only $50/mo for a full size truck. You can easily recover $50/mo by small changes in spending habits. For example, drive with friends, don't eat out so much, etc..

We bitch about such a minor difference in expense for no reason. There are far greater profits being made on stuff that we don't mind spending money on. Yes their profits are big, but not from a percentage stand point. If you want to complain, complain about paying $50/mo for cable internet, there is a TON of margin on that. Same with cell phones... clothes.... beer... software... All things we happily write checks for every month.

There is nothing wrong with making money.

Reality is that gas is a luxury item, you need it, they supply it, and no matter what, you will continue to pay for it and abuse it.

[2001-WS6]

Don't even get me started on the margins at the strip clubs. :D

Rick

[CableGuy]

Man... so was there a nuke that went off, killed 1/6 the worlds/U.S. populatation?

The demend for gas really dropped in the last 4 weeks, so the prices are down 1/6!!!!!!!!!

I heard another bomb is suppose to go off before thanksgiving in a region where it will in no way affect oil pumping,transport or refining which will result in a loss for 500 million people and drop the demand which will directly effect the price down to about 1/5 more to about two bucks!!!

P.s. When are elections?

[CableGuy]

Reality is that it is totally a case of supply and demand. As well as people bitching, over something they do have control over and choose to not do anything about.

For example, take my truck... (numbers are simplifed of course)

- It gets on average 15 mpg or so.
- I drive sometimes 1,500 miles a month, so I consume 100 gallons of gas per month.

That said, the difference between $2.50/gallon and $3.00/gallon is only $50/mo for a full size truck. You can easily recover $50/mo by small changes in spending habits. For example, drive with friends, don't eat out so much, etc..

We bitch about such a minor difference in expense for no reason. There are far greater profits being made on stuff that we don't mind spending money on. Yes their profits are big, but not from a percentage stand point. If you want to complain, complain about paying $50/mo for cable internet, there is a TON of margin on that. Same with cell phones... clothes.... beer... software... All things we happily write checks for every month.

There is nothing wrong with making money.

Reality is that gas is a luxury item, you need it, they supply it, and no matter what, you will continue to pay for it and abuse it.

No offence but the COMMON bullshit line.

Refer to above post for response!

And HSD isnt cheap, the "connection" the cable company get might get cheap / by 10000 customers, but getting it to the customer gets very expensive.

15 bucks an hour for a base tech, 25 an hour for a maint tech

Amps are ~500
Nodes are ~ 4000

Both of those can be sent back and usually fixed for cheaper than a new unit.

You have slow speeds;

Tech comes out finds squirrl chewed line replaces it and then finds bad levels @ tap or your PC isnt getting the 4000kB you pay for, maint tech comes out and replaced a amp. (And there is 1 node and usually 3 outs, and on each out 4 amps in line. So a lot of equip can go bad.)

Tech, 2 hours 30 bucks
Maint, 2 hours 50 bucks
JUST 1 amp, 500

Your 50 a month now will go towards the repairs for the next year, and you have free bandwidth.

[little2v]

No offence but the COMMON bullshit line.

Refer to above post for response!

And HSD isnt cheap, the "connection" the cable company get might get cheap / by 10000 customers, but getting it to the customer gets very expensive.

15 bucks an hour for a base tech, 25 an hour for a maint tech

Amps are ~500
Nodes are ~ 4000

Both of those can be sent back and usually fixed for cheaper than a new unit.

You have slow speeds;

Tech comes out finds squirrl chewed line replaces it and then finds bad levels @ tap or your PC isnt getting the 4000kB you pay for, maint tech comes out and replaced a amp. (And there is 1 node and usually 3 outs, and on each out 4 amps in line. So a lot of equip can go bad.)

Tech, 2 hours 30 bucks
Maint, 2 hours 50 bucks
JUST 1 amp, 500

Your 50 a month now will go towards the repairs for the next year, and you have free bandwidth.

As far as the math about the gas goes... hey, it's true. When you look at what the money gets you, it is not that horribly bad. There are many worse things.

Yeah, but you keep forgetting that a business like that is also set up for a longer term ROI...and that almost all of that equipment is leased and not purchased... etc...

The bandwidth an average person uses isn't even $5/mo...

[WayFastWhitey]

I heard the gas prices dropped because the price of ethanol dropped.

[Sean124]

OK

I can say I've learned way more about this topic then I ever wanted to know.



Even with chemical processing I would like to see how it is possible to Even if you take one 70 carbon strand and turn it into 7 10 carbon strands you still only have 70 carbons I guess gas is less dense but 3 times:dontknow:

I'm not saying your friend is 100% wrong but if he is right you should be able to have some documatation to the fact, and we are discussing current methods not some shit they aren't doing on a wide scale yet because that would be irrevelant to this discusion.

Now if you read this http://www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/4/chemistry/petroleum/knowl/4/cracking.html



You get the impression that cracking takes a long strands of carbons like Heavy gas oil which is the feed stock and produces pertal (gasoline) but only 20% is gasoline the rest is wasted. Which is much less efficient.:dontknow:


Didn't get a chance to touch base with him last night and take some notes. As soon as i do i will get back here.

[L98Terror]

No offence but the COMMON bullshit line.

Refer to above post for response!

And HSD isnt cheap, the "connection" the cable company get might get cheap / by 10000 customers, but getting it to the customer gets very expensive.

15 bucks an hour for a base tech, 25 an hour for a maint tech

Amps are ~500
Nodes are ~ 4000

Both of those can be sent back and usually fixed for cheaper than a new unit.

You have slow speeds;

Tech comes out finds squirrl chewed line replaces it and then finds bad levels @ tap or your PC isnt getting the 4000kB you pay for, maint tech comes out and replaced a amp. (And there is 1 node and usually 3 outs, and on each out 4 amps in line. So a lot of equip can go bad.)

Tech, 2 hours 30 bucks
Maint, 2 hours 50 bucks
JUST 1 amp, 500

Your 50 a month now will go towards the repairs for the next year, and you have free bandwidth.

We got it but how come only your company can make a profit

http://www.conocophillips.com/NR/rdonlyres/4BC32DE9-6EC8-48B5-988B-8DE9610B10C1/0/ProfitsOilVsOtherIndust2005.gif
Oil companies make less per dollar of sales than a lot of other industries, when oil dropped to $10 a barrel I didn't here you saying oil companies are losing money maybe we should give them extra.


If our goverement doesnt get anything out of this, then why dont they do something? That's called socialism it doesn't work look at Russia the less the government is involved the better it is no matter what the govn't has never made anything better.

History serves as a helpful teacher on this question. As part of a general effort to combat high inflation in the early 1970s, President Nixon placed price controls on the oil industry and many other sectors of the American economy. Eventually the controls were lifted from other industries, but they remained in place for U.S.-produced oil as the government tried to partially protect consumers from the jump in world oil prices caused by the oil embargo of 1973-74. A so-called windfall profits tax was imposed on the industry in 1980, when again world oil prices rose dramatically as a result of supply disruptions stemming from conflicts in Iran and Iraq. The government began phasing out the tax in 1981.

Although various price and profit control programs did limit income to oil companies, it's questionable whether they benefited consumers in the long run. Between 1974 and 1980, imported oil prices averaged about 50 percent more than the price for oil produced in America. As a consequence, U.S. oil companies were discouraged from exploring for and finding supplies of oil and natural gas at home. Meanwhile, industrial and individual consumers were shielded from higher prices that might have encouraged greater energy conservation.

A report by the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) that surveyed the events in the 25 years following the 1973-74 oil embargo concluded that federal price controls and allocations systems not only "failed to resolve these problems (electricity brownouts and rapidly rising prices), they seemed to aggravate them."

According to a 1990 Report of the Congressional Research Service, the windfall profits tax that was signed into law in 1980 and repealed in 1988 drained $79 billion in industry revenues during the 1980s that could have been used to invest in new oil production – leading to 1.6 billion fewer barrels of oil being produced in the U.S. from 1980-1988. The tax reduced domestic oil production as much as 6 percent, and increased oil imports as much as 16 percent.



The U.S. government has investigated gasoline prices about 30 times over the last 20 years but oil companies were never found to have “fixed” prices. Most recently, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) completed an exhaustive study of alleged market manipulation to increase gasoline prices in the weeks following Hurricane Katrina late last summer. The FTC report, released in May 2006, included these findings:


*No evidence that refiners manipulated prices by running refineries below full production capacity, restricting gasoline production or diverting gasoline from the U.S. market to less lucrative foreign markets.
*No evidence to suggest refinery expansion decisions over the past 20 years resulted from either unilateral or coordinated attempts to manipulate prices.
*No evidence to suggest companies reduced inventories to increase or manipulate prices or exacerbate price spikes.
*No situations that might allow one firm – or a small collusive group – to manipulate gasoline futures prices by using storage assets to restrict gasoline movements into New York Harbor, the key delivery point for gasoline.


Something like this bring "monopoly" to mind. Controlling 1 product and in this case making BILLIONS of dollars off of it.
Cable compaines control one product? Under you definition must companies are invovle in monopolys. :lol: To have a monopoly a company has to have exclusive control there are many oil companies but how many places can you get a OS for you computer? 90+% comes for Microsoft that's why microsoft came under attack.


Man... so was there a nuke that went off, killed 1/6 the worlds/U.S. populatation?

The demend for gas really dropped in the last 4 weeks, so the prices are down 1/6!!!!!!!!!

I heard another bomb is suppose to go off before thanksgiving in a region where it will in no way affect oil pumping,transport or refining which will result in a loss for 500 million people and drop the demand which will directly effect the price down to about 1/5 more to about two bucks!!!



If we use less fuel prices would go down assuming the supply remains constant

[L98Terror]

Keep in mind currently Exxon Mobil is the most profitable company in the world but they also have the most sales of any company in the world. Kind of makes sense the largest company in the world makes the most money not rocket science.

Check it out

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/18/Profits_1.html

BTW
Exxon made 36.13 Billion in profits on 328.12 Billion in sales
Microsoft made 13.06 Billion in profits on 41.36 Billion in sales
Citi group made 24.64 Billion in profits on 120.64 Billion in Sales

Exxon 11% Return
Microsoft 32% Return
Citi Group 20% Return

Not sure why you pissing and moaning about oil companies, you really want to know who's fucking you the most look to your government

[CableGuy]

Keep in mind currently Exxon Mobil is the most profitable company in the world but they also have the most sales of any company in the world. Kind of makes sense the largest company in the world makes the most money not rocket science.

Check it out

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/18/Profits_1.html

BTW
Exxon made 36.13 Billion in profits on 328.12 Billion in sales
Microsoft made 13.06 Billion in profits on 41.36 Billion in sales
Citi group made 24.64 Billion in profits on 120.64 Billion in Sales

Exxon 11% Return
Microsoft 32% Return
Citi Group 20% Return

Not sure why you pissing and moaning about oil companies, you really want to know who's fucking you the most look to your government

Microsoft... I agree with them going down in smoke, last MS product I bought was windows 98se.

Citi group and all banking areas... CREDIT CARDS! They are making 20 percent on 500 million people, if people didnt spend money they didnt have citi would of had 20 billion in sales with 1 billion in profit.



*No evidence that refiners manipulated prices by running refineries below full production capacity, restricting gasoline production or diverting gasoline from the U.S. market to less lucrative foreign markets.
*No evidence to suggest refinery expansion decisions over the past 20 years resulted from either unilateral or coordinated attempts to manipulate prices.
*No evidence to suggest companies reduced inventories to increase or manipulate prices or exacerbate price spikes.
*No situations that might allow one firm – or a small collusive group – to manipulate gasoline futures prices by using storage assets to restrict gasoline movements into New York Harbor, the key delivery point for gasoline.


If ALL of those statements are true then why was gas 3 bucks 3 weeks ago and now it is magically dropping?:dontknow:

[L98Terror]

If ALL of those statements are true then why was gas 3 bucks 3 weeks ago and now it is magically dropping?:dontknow:


The average price U.S. drivers paid for gasoline fell to the lowest level in more than four months, the government said Monday, and more savings could be on the way as Tropical Storm Ernesto becomes less of a threat to oil producing areas in the Gulf of Mexico.



Even though gasoline demand is up from a year ago, the sharp drop in pump costs reflects declining crude prices and above average motor fuel inventories.
Crude oil fell more than $2 a barrel Monday at the New York Mercantile Exchange on news that Tropical Storm Ernesto was forecast to stay away from oil wells in the Gulf.




Supply and demand there is more supply and now that it looks like the storms won't hit the wells in the gulf there shouldn't be a decrease in oil they were predicting. Now if a storm hits the Gulf expect prices to rise.

[CableGuy]

Supply and demand there is more supply and now that it looks like the storms won't hit the wells in the gulf there shouldn't be a decrease in oil they were predicting. Now if a storm hits the Gulf expect prices to rise.


Well hurrican season is Aug-Oct, why is gas dropping now??? WTF? In your head does that make sence? I would think it would of dropped MONTHS ago and about this time of the year it would start to go up because of that reason?

That makes absoutly NO sence at all.:crazy: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

OR what your saying is they WERE stock piling the oil, to keep the price @ 3 bucks for now if a storm did hit that area and when a storm hit it would shoot up to 3.50+ a gallon even though they are still making money today with it at 2.49 (16 and John r Speed way last night was 2.49)

[L98Terror]

Well hurrican season is Aug-Oct, why is gas dropping now??? WTF? In your head does that make sence? I would think it would of dropped MONTHS ago and about this time of the year it would start to go up because of that reason?

That makes absoutly NO sence at all.:crazy: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

OR what your saying is they WERE stock piling the oil, to keep the price @ 3 bucks for now if a storm did hit that area and when a storm hit it would shoot up to 3.50+ a gallon even though they are still making money today with it at 2.49 (16 and John r Speed way last night was 2.49)

From what I gather is they were stock piling it that's why inventories are higher. The reason for higher prices is to reduce demand so that they can build up an inventory in case a storm hits. If a storm hits price will go up farther to decrease demand even farther if it never hits prices drop because the supply never gets interrupted and they have all this extra gas they weren't planning on.

I do know what your saying but the problem is they need to look father in advance it's not instant, so if hurricane season begins in August they need to start stock piling in May or June if they wait till August and a storm hits early then they run the risk of running out.

Now ask yourself what would piss you off more paying $3.00 a gallon or not being able to get gas at any price:dontknow:

Of course all of this is a guess on my part I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

[CableGuy]

Of course all of this is a guess on my part I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

Same with half of the things I stated.

[little2v]

The big thing to remember is that there is an unknown amount of lag between world events, cost per barrel, etc and the prices you see at the pump.

They vary production volume at certain times of the year, and when other world events occur, and the effects of that are usually felt weeks/months/years later...

Alot of business deal with changing costs every day, the solution, run with more margin!

Exxon could make it so the gas prices don't change much, by raising them enough that they have margin for any change in gas cost. $4/gallon anyone?

[L98Terror]

The big thing to remember is that there is an unknown amount of lag between world events, cost per barrel, etc and the prices you see at the pump.

They vary production volume at certain times of the year, and when other world events occur, and the effects of that are usually felt weeks/months/years later...

Alot of business deal with changing costs every day, the solution, run with more margin!

Exxon could make it so the gas prices don't change much, by raising them enough that they have margin for any change in gas cost. $4/gallon anyone?
I think I saw it take 3 months for a oil tanker to go from the middle east to the gulf and back

[2001-WS6]

...
If ALL of those statements are true then why was gas 3 bucks 3 weeks ago and now it is magically dropping?:dontknow:

It was $3 a gallon a week ago because that was the price they wanted to sell it at and that was the price we wanted to buy it at.

If I were to make an off the cuff guess as to why they dropped the prices, it would in fact be storm related. The fact that the first significant storm of the year is a glorified nancy, and has blown up the Atlantic coast, will chase a lot of fear away in the speculation markets and end consumer fuel supplies will get looser. You've got a lot of guys that were buying up oil in the hopes we'd get jacked by another big storm and that they'd be the white knights making the big bucks to deliver oil. Now they are taking it in the ass on that gamble and selling short.

The really interesting thing will be what happens to the price at the pumps tomorrow and the rest of the holiday weekend. If it stays the same, then it's the sellers saying they've done well and lets try to compete for market share again. If it actually continues to go down over the holiday, then it's the sellers saying they've heard something that is actualy serious enough in congress that they don't like what the future may hold if they don't weigh in on the election timing process. So lets throw the congressional dogs some bones to get them votes in order to get their votes. :D

Either way... It's nothing personal... it's just business. :)

Rick

[CableGuy]

You've got a lot of guys that were buying up oil in the hopes we'd get jacked by another big storm and that they'd be the white knights making the big bucks to deliver oil.

Im being serious... this is one of the I dont understand. Who are these people??

The way I thought it went......

Exxon, BP etc etc, own the rigs; pump the oil; own the refineries; refine the il to gas, and then gas stations buy it?

But how you said it, thats not true. There is a middle man.

The number game, my way:

Exxon Sells it for 2.30 a gallon, then gas stations who sell it pay the trucker lets say five cent a gallon and then sell it for 2.49

OR

Your way

Exxon Sells it for 2.30 a gallon, Buyer1 buys it then sells it for 2.40 or 2.90 depending on supply, then gas stations who sell it pay the trucker lets say five cent a gallon and then sell it for 2.49/3.09

[2001-WS6]

Im being serious... this is one of the I dont understand. Who are these people??

The way I thought it went......

Exxon, BP etc etc, own the rigs; pump the oil; own the refineries; refine the il to gas, and then gas stations buy it?

But how you said it, thats not true. There is a middle man.

The number game, my way:

Exxon Sells it for 2.30 a gallon, then gas stations who sell it pay the trucker lets say five cent a gallon and then sell it for 2.49

OR

Your way

Exxon Sells it for 2.30 a gallon, Buyer1 buys it then sells it for 2.40 or 2.90 depending on supply, then gas stations who sell it pay the trucker lets say five cent a gallon and then sell it for 2.49/3.09

It's before that even. The trading is going on at the raw barrel of oil level. The people buying are investors, big chemical companies, plastics companies and other large industry users. They are buying it right off the pipeline/tanker. They are saying that 1-4 month down the line I want to buy thousands of barrels at delivery point A on a given day. They may pick it up at point A or sell it to someone else.

The big oil companies are the sellers at that point. They need to decide if they can make more money with their barrel of oil on the market it or by running it through their own refinery chain. There may be times when they need to buy from each other, or even buy back from these investors in order to make sure they have the right amount of raw oil to go into their production line at the point that they need it at the right time.

All this is occuring before the refined product goes into the truck that goes to the gas station.

No there might now be a very large percentage of raw crude traded in the markets but when we are basically at 100% capcity to meet the world demand, even 3-5% of the world wide daily oil being traded on the markets can have a big impact on the price of the raw oil.

Then once it gets processed, that's where you see your portion of the market where finished gas is sold to the distributors and gas stations.

Rick

[CableGuy]

I just thought of a very simple sentence that will prove/solve this thread.

The DEMAND never changes (ok maybe ~.01% per day in the US). So since that doesnt change the SUPPLY does change, which decides the price. Who is controlling the supply. (Rick answered that.)


So Rick, I could buy 50000 barrel's of oil every day for the next month for lets say 65 bucks, which would drop the supply. Then when the next big hurricane takes out FL or TX and gas shoots up to 85 a barrel I could sell it 1,2,3,5 10 months later for 85? And my money comes from selling stuff on ebay so I have no use for oil, I would just stock pile it in a large yard. (For example)

[L98Terror]

I just thought of a very simple sentence that will prove/solve this thread.

The DEMAND never changes (ok maybe ~.01% per day in the US). So since that doesnt change the SUPPLY does change, which decides the price. Who is controlling the supply. (Rick answered that.)





DEMAND does change and the price of oil is a world wide traded price not just in the US. DEMAND doesn't change much in the US because everyone in the US is Rich (I say that because someone below the poverty line or collecting welfare in the US is still in the top 1% of the richest people in the world) But in most countries when prices increase demand drops of. In the US just keeping demand flat will drop prices.

Growing Demand. Consumption of gasoline and other oil products is growing around the world, especially in rapidly developing countries such as India and China, which is now the world’s second largest energy user. Global petroleum demand grew by 3.2 percent in 2004 – or by more than 100 million gallons a day – and continued climbing in 2005 and 2006. U.S. gasoline demand has been growing less than in developing nations, but nevertheless gasoline consumption reached a record high last August, averaging nearly 400 million gallons a day. The U.S. consumes more gasoline than any other country.

So Rick, I could buy 50000 barrel's of oil every day for the next month for lets say 65 bucks, which would drop the supply. Then when the next big hurricane takes out FL or TX and gas shoots up to 85 a barrel I could sell it 1,2,3,5 10 months later for 85? And my money comes from selling stuff on ebay so I have no use for oil, I would just stock pile it in a large yard. (For example)

50,000 won't do it since world demand in around 85,000,000 barrels a day.

You will never get the oil it's only on paper of course in you wish to hire a bunch of tankers and sail them in circles around the ocean I guess it would work but the cost of doing that would probably exceed any reasonable profits. Oil doesn't actually come in barrels:icon_mrgr

What might work better is buy all the Mickey Thompson Drag radials in February store them in your back yard and sell them of a profit during the summer.


As with anything there is a risk the price of oil could drop and you might have to sell at 55 a barrel. As the cost rises companies drill new wells and alternative forms of energy become more attractive.

[L98Terror]

http://motownmuscle.com/fileshare/files/35/Gas%20prices.gif

[Sean124]

http://motownmuscle.com/fileshare/files/35/Gas%20prices.gif

The truth in the cartoon is that the SUV/Truck craze is whats been driving up demand and prices now for sevral years. China and India are definately contributing factors but our consumption over the last 15 yrs has increased dramatically.I just can;t find the freaking charts showng production demand for the last 15 yrs they are curiously missing from the DOE website.

[L98Terror]

The truth in the cartoon is that the SUV/Truck craze is whats been driving up demand and prices now for sevral years. China and India are definately contributing factors but our consumption over the last 15 yrs has increased dramatically.I just can;t find the freaking charts showng production demand for the last 15 yrs they are curiously missing from the DOE website.

How about the charts saying how you get 120 gal of gas one barrel of crude

[dave89iroc]

first time ever I have seen the prices keep dropping over a holiday weekend, they are cheaper today then they were friday..................

[CableGuy]

first time ever I have seen the prices keep dropping over a holiday weekend, they are cheaper today then they were friday..................
:baddancin :baddancin :woot: :boobies: :punk: :arco: :1syellow1 :hugegrin: :naughty1: :naughty1: :grouphug: :cheers: :eek2: :alcoholic :alcoholic :banana: :banana: :icon_psyc :icon_psyc :icon_psyc :dance: :seizure: :specool: :bubbrubb: :chug: :redstang: :bowrofl: :angel: :2000-pont :dj: :naughty: :slomo: :sagrin: :wtg: :haha: :applause: :3gears: :lew: :shots: :rockwoot: :lick: :jawdrop2: :gr_jest:


That is all....:wink:

[L98Terror]

Yeah so a petroleum engineer with 2 phd's who actuall refines gasoline for a living is feeding Me bullshit. The outcome of the refining process and i talked to him last night is that the figures your qouting is based on distilation refining which is magnitudes less efficient then catalyst cracking.catalyst cracking is more exspensive though When i get some time this morning i am going to research into detial the exact difference in output and conversion and put the matter to rest. And if i am wrong then i will admit so.

Instead of a new post as i have time i am going to keep updating this one. here are some basics on the catalyst refining process.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining5.htm

http://www.tstctech.com/Refining/default.htm

I am looking around for refining efficiencys right now.I am going to try to get the petroleum engineer to chim in.

9 days and counting

[Sean124]

9 days and counting

I am gathering my data carefully.

[Sean124]

How about the charts saying how you get 120 gal of gas one barrel of crude

Yeah what about the fact that the CAFE standards are lower now then they were 20yrs ago and that newer vehicles get far less fuel economy then the ones built 20yrs ago.

[patman]

Yeah what about the fact that the CAFE standards are lower now then they were 20yrs ago and that newer vehicles get far less fuel economy then the ones built 20yrs ago.

I haven't done any research, but my 2000 z28 gets 30MPG on the highway. I'm thinking that the 1980 Z28's couldn't do that.....

patman

[Sean124]

I haven't done any research, but my 2000 z28 gets 30MPG on the highway. I'm thinking that the 1980 Z28's couldn't do that.....

patman

Wasn't reffering to sports cars. Was reffering to SUV's and Mid size cars. They have gotten so heavy from crash safety standards that the fuel economy has droppped dramatically. A late 80's chevy corsica 3.1 got around 20city and 26 highway. a new Malibu same family gets like 15city and 22highway.

the other side of it is that alot of folks jumped out of fullsize and midsize cars and into trucks and SUV's which got far less fuel economy. Demand is up usage is up and so the price is going up.

[patman]

Wasn't reffering to sports cars. Was reffering to SUV's and Mid size cars. They have gotten so heavy from crash safety standards that the fuel economy has droppped dramatically. A late 80's chevy corsica 3.1 got around 20city and 26 highway. a new Malibu same family gets like 15city and 22highway.

the other side of it is that alot of folks jumped out of fullsize and midsize cars and into trucks and SUV's which got far less fuel economy. Demand is up usage is up and so the price is going up.

I won't argue the SUV part, but the mid and full size cars do pretty good now



2006 Chevrolet Cobalt
MSRP: $17,700 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 25 / Hwy: 34
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Malibu
MSRP: $16,990 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 24 / Hwy: 32
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Impala
MSRP: $20,760 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 21 / Hwy: 31
Get Pricing Engine(s): 211hp 3.5 L V6

Patman

[Sean124]

I won't argue the SUV part, but the mid and full size cars do pretty good now



2006 Chevrolet Cobalt
MSRP: $17,700 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 25 / Hwy: 34
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Malibu
MSRP: $16,990 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 24 / Hwy: 32
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Impala
MSRP: $20,760 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 21 / Hwy: 31
Get Pricing Engine(s): 211hp 3.5 L V6

Patman

i wasn't refferring directly to the much newer cars avaiable the 2005-2007 model year cars have definatley improved alot in the last 4-5 yrs. but the demand is still high becuase of the SUV craze.

[patman]

i wasn't refferring directly to the much newer cars avaiable the 2005-2007 model year cars have definatley improved alot in the last 4-5 yrs. but the demand is still high becuase of the SUV craze.

yep

patman

[Sean124]

yep

patman

But the cars i was reffering to are the mid 90's to early 00 cars the fuel economy went down on quiet a few models and then in the past few years has gone back up.

[CableGuy]

I won't argue the SUV part, but the mid and full size cars do pretty good now



2006 Chevrolet Cobalt
MSRP: $17,700 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 25 / Hwy: 34
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Malibu
MSRP: $16,990 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 24 / Hwy: 32
Get Pricing Engine(s): 145hp 2.2 L I4


2007 Chevrolet Impala
MSRP: $20,760 Internet Discount Price Quote
Fuel Economy City: 21 / Hwy: 31
Get Pricing Engine(s): 211hp 3.5 L V6

Patman


GOOD LUCK! I was watching cnn one night and they did some research on EPA EST MPG rated on your windows sticker.

Most cars were off by 25-30% (iirc) and the closest was like 9%.

[Mclovin]

It's bush's fault. HE'S A COCK SUCKER !! NOTHING MORE TO BE SAID !

[L98Terror]

Originally Posted by L98Terror
How about the charts saying how you get 120 gal of gas one barrel of crude

Yeah what about the fact that the CAFE standards are lower now then they were 20yrs ago and that newer vehicles get far less fuel economy then the ones built 20yrs ago.


Please explain what one has to do with the other:dontknow: Or is this your way to change the topic.

BTW my 2003 Z06 gets 29 ish MPG on the Highway with 405 hp My 1991 got about 26 with 245 HP


:roll: so one car did make sure you compare apples to apples cars now have way more HP so of course MPG may be down on some models. Can you come up with actual example of what you are talking about?