My Car is on the DYNO right now. So far...

[dpmcghee]

I let you know more once it is finished, but so far with only 10lbs of boost, it made 592rwhp and 650rwtq on a MUSTANG dyno... We're going to start turning up the boost. I'll let you know how it goes.

Here's the basics of the setup:
1991 Mustang GT
R302 blocked 348 - 4.125 bore x 3.25stroke
TW heads 300cfm on the intake and about 210 on exhaust.
Track Heat intake
96lb. MSD injectors
Jay Allen custom cam
Turbonetics T-76 with .96a/r (too small exhaust housing we think...) on a HP Turbo kit.
TKO trans with cintered iron disk clutch...

Special thanks to Shaun Collins who owns C.A.R.S. in Waterford, MI for spending so much time getting this thing figured out.

Dan

[racrohn]

Dan,
Sounds like it's gonna make alot more hp! congrats!:specool:

[johnquick302]

awesome...

[ZR2_S10]

Is 600whp good for a 10.xx pass in a mustang, or faster?

[johnquick302]

Is 600whp good for a 10.xx pass in a mustang, or faster?
it should go well into the 9s, especially if he puts a auto in it...

[W2WSS]

its gonna be a monster, congrats dan

[BigWheelinBubba]

:eek:

Congrats!!

[PaxNovi 5.0]

Gotta love a big bore 348! Congrats on the numbers, and especially on a Mustang Dyno. I wonder how much more that bad lad would lay down on a Dyno Jet?

Congrats. Let us know on the #'s with the upped boost.

[v8killr4u]

yeah those are nice numbers

[orangejuiced86]

Damn, congrats.... Gotta love those turbos!!

[Baldy]

thats awsome congrats and good luck:peelout:

[blwncobra]

way to go Dan! it sounds its gonna exceed the number we were talking about

[ReiKo]

Congrats man... What did it end up finishing off at?

[97blksvt]

my guess is around high 700's with 18-20psi, and around 800tq

[dpmcghee]

Well, here's the update...

We couldn't get the turbo to make anything more than 14lbs of boost. I talked to Raj last night for quite a while and he helped me do a bit of math on my turbo vs. engine consumption. Turns out that the turbo I have is about maxed out right now with my engine. According to the compressor map, this turbo probably won't make the 18-20lbs of boost on my engine that I was hoping to make...

So, until I up the turbo, the final numbers were 622rwhp/650rwtq.

Now, let me say, from my seat of the pants butt o' meter, the car is ALOT faster than it was last year. I think that the reason for this is that the torque curve is SOOOOOO wide on this thing.

It makes about 650rwtq just below 4000rpm and doesn't dip below 600ftlb. until 5800rpm where it begins to ease down slightly. Furthermore, it makes over 600rwhp from 5100rpm all the way to 6600rpm.

I do wonder what this thing would make on a Dynojet? Anyone want to venture a guess?

I'll see if I can get Shaun to post the dyno sheet sometime next week after the holiday weekend. Now, if only it wouldn't rain tonight:icon_mrgr

Dan

[2L8IWIN]

Congrats Dan....turbo's rock!

[orangejuiced86]

600+ is serious business. Even more so if you have a car like yours that can use the power.. Congrats!!!!

[cjmatt]

nice numbers, that things gotta be fun on the street!!!

[Dan Millen]

I let you know more once it is finished, but so far with only 10lbs of boost, it made 592rwhp and 650rwtq on a MUSTANG dyno... We're going to start turning up the boost. I'll let you know how it goes.

Here's the basics of the setup:
1991 Mustang GT
R302 blocked 348 - 4.125 bore x 3.25stroke
TW heads 300cfm on the intake and about 210 on exhaust.
Track Heat intake
96lb. MSD injectors
Jay Allen custom cam
Turbonetics T-76 with .96a/r (too small exhaust housing we think...) on a HP Turbo kit.
TKO trans with cintered iron disk clutch...

Special thanks to Shaun Collins who owns C.A.R.S. in Waterford, MI for spending so much time getting this thing figured out.

Dan

Dan glad to see you got the car on the dyno! Let us know how your Livernois Engine holds up to that power! From the sounds of it that block is just starting to get warmed up!

Thanks

Dan Millen

Livernois Motorsports (http://www.livernoismotorsports.com)

[dpmcghee]

Dan glad to see you got the car on the dyno! Let us know how your Livernois Engine holds up to that power! From the sounds of it that block is just starting to get warmed up!

Thanks

Dan Millen

Livernois Motorsports (http://www.livernoismotorsports.com)



Ha, Ha!!! I'll bring it by sometime in the next week or so... I ended up tuning with AEM... I know that you like F.A.S.T., but I'd really like for you to take a look at this AEM computer. It seems to have some really nice features.

You guys built me a great piece, Dan!

Dan

ps. congrats on those times I heard about. Way to go!

[dpmcghee]

Congrats Dan....turbo's rock!


Hey, we need to get together one night and let these two turbo mustangs play around a little bit on the street. I heard your car is a rocket ship!

Dan

[RyeLou]

Congrats on the numbers Dan. I'm still obsessed with your car from when I saw it during Seans open house during the Dream Cruise. Hopefully my car will be in his shop soon and we'll see what happens on the Neon.

[TRBOBUICK]

Hey, we need to get together one night and let these two turbo mustangs play around a little bit on the street. I heard your car is a rocket ship!

Dan

You can meet up with him and show him what a REAL intercooler is.

[Dan Millen]

Ha, Ha!!! I'll bring it by sometime in the next week or so... I ended up tuning with AEM... I know that you like F.A.S.T., but I'd really like for you to take a look at this AEM computer. It seems to have some really nice features.

You guys built me a great piece, Dan!

Dan

ps. congrats on those times I heard about. Way to go!

Thanks

No problem Dan, I will take a look at it reguardless of what it is and give you my two cents and I can advise you where I think the tuneup should be.

Glad to see its up and running!

Thanks

Dan Millen

Livernois Motorsports

[little2v]

Glad to see you here Dan..

[CableGuy]

FYI, the bigger turbo will hurt that torque curve a tad.

Bad ass numbers!

[Bobbo]

Ha, Ha!!! I'll bring it by sometime in the next week or so... I ended up tuning with AEM... I know that you like F.A.S.T., but I'd really like for you to take a look at this AEM computer. It seems to have some really nice features.

You guys built me a great piece, Dan!

Dan

ps. congrats on those times I heard about. Way to go!
Glad you like the AEM EMS unit. I've had a lot of guys with big power V8's going with them lately. Haven't had any complaints yet. I had that overnighted for you by the way ;)

[RyeLou]

FYI, the bigger turbo will hurt that torque curve a tad.

Bad ass numbers!
Adam you sound like you're speaking from experience..?:dontknow: :laugh:

[Casper302]

Car looked good tonight Dan, glad to see it out.

[2L8IWIN]

Youre a fucking tool. If i didnt know any better i swear i ran into a Short Bus Drew Carey that night on Woodward. A 'real' intercooler? haha..you have no idea tard...hop back on your chair and go sell some tires...



/end of hijack


You can meet up with him and show him what a REAL intercooler is.

[TRBOBUICK]

Youre a fucking tool. If i didnt know any better i swear i ran into a Short Bus Drew Carey that night on Woodward. A 'real' intercooler? haha..you have no idea tard...hop back on your chair and go sell some tires...



/end of hijack

LOL...i was wondering when you were going to pop in. Im just fucking with you , i was thinking of the same combo as yours in a notch.

And what night on woodward are you speaking of ?

[dpmcghee]

Congrats on the numbers Dan. I'm still obsessed with your car from when I saw it during Seans open house during the Dream Cruise. Hopefully my car will be in his shop soon and we'll see what happens on the Neon.


Good luck RyeLou! I hope that you go as fast as you possibly can!

Dan

[dpmcghee]

To everyone: Thanks for the kind words. Its good to be up and running again.

Bobbo: Thanks for the AEM unit. I'm going to try to figure out how to tune this thing myself in the coming months. It seems that there is a bit of a learning curve, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Dan

[2L8IWIN]

;)

the night you and sean/rodriguez were tearing into one another...i just walked around and checked out the cars...

Captain Morgan, remmeber?:icon_mrgr

LOL...i was wondering when you were going to pop in. Im just fucking with you , i was thinking of the same combo as yours in a notch.

And what night on woodward are you speaking of ?

[2L8IWIN]

It moves pretty good...im awlays down for some fun...let me know when your in the area/woodward/gratiot.

Congrats again on the combo!

Hey, we need to get together one night and let these two turbo mustangs play around a little bit on the street. I heard your car is a rocket ship!

Dan

[TRBOBUICK]

;)

the night you and sean/rodriguez were tearing into one another...i just walked around and checked out the cars...

Captain Morgan, remmeber?:icon_mrgr

Were you on crutches ?

[SVTSINR]

Congrats Dan, Sounds like your a sold turbo addict. Does it feel like a manual turbo diesel?

I like to see the numbers you and Raj came up with on the turbo sizing sometime. I was just wondering if the car wouldn't build boost on the dyno but is able to on the street.

Another turbo mustang running...just awesome...

[TRBOBUICK]

Dynos are funny. Mine went on right after dans. My car wouldnt build much more than 12, but on the street 25 was on tap. Im sure dans car is going to fly.
CONGRATS DAN !!!

[P.F.M.]

Congrats Dan that bad boy should move out forsure!!!

[2001-WS6]

Congrats Dan. I kind of figured you were going to enjoy the turbo world. :)

Don't forget we've got Norwalk this Friday if you can make it down for some passes. There'll be a lot of Turbo folks hanging out for show and tell. :D

Rick

[orangejuiced86]

Dynos are funny. Mine went on right after dans. My car wouldnt build much more than 12, but on the street 25 was on tap. Im sure dans car is going to fly.
CONGRATS DAN !!!


Does that have something to do with how much load the dyno is putting on the rear tires?

[TRBOBUICK]

Im not sure. Sean had the load cranked up on both of our cars. Important thing is the 02's are commanded for a safe a/f and thats what counts. Sean is going to help me with some track tuning.

[Sean124]

Does that have something to do with how much load the dyno is putting on the rear tires?

I am still mistified by brians lack of boost building on the dyno. Dans car seems not to have that trouble however. Here is Dans Dyno sheet since i was asked to post it.

Sean

[dpmcghee]

Congrats Dan, Sounds like your a sold turbo addict. Does it feel like a manual turbo diesel?

I like to see the numbers you and Raj came up with on the turbo sizing sometime. I was just wondering if the car wouldn't build boost on the dyno but is able to on the street.

Another turbo mustang running...just awesome...


Rob,

That's a good way to describe the power curve on this thing - like a turbo diesel. It hits hard and quick and just seems to keep pulling. I was experimenting a little bit at my super-secret, late-night, dragrace spot and the car seems to go faster as I short-shift the thing, sorta like a diesel truck!

Give me a call and I'll walk you through the math that Raj and I were talking about - 734.968.3570

Dan

[91trunk]

Rob,

That's a good way to describe the power curve on this thing - like a turbo diesel. It hits hard and quick and just seems to keep pulling. I was experimenting a little bit at my super-secret, late-night, dragrace spot and the car seems to go faster as I short-shift the thing, sorta like a diesel truck!

Give me a call and I'll walk you through the math that Raj and I were talking about - 734.968.3570

Dan

Dan PM that place. Maybe the Trunk and I met you there.

[Sean124]

Congrats Dan, Sounds like your a sold turbo addict. Does it feel like a manual turbo diesel?

I like to see the numbers you and Raj came up with on the turbo sizing sometime. I was just wondering if the car wouldn't build boost on the dyno but is able to on the street.

Another turbo mustang running...just awesome...

hp per cube and total airflow avialable say nope 90 lb/min. the Compressor is looking like its out of air. We never did see the waste gate open. the TQ is there to make close to 800hp but the RPM for the TQ curve is really low. Retarding the camhsaft 6-8 degree might move it upstairs enough to bring the top end power out. the total flow of the compressor given optimal conditions is 90lbs minute. divide like so

90 lb minute ( flow ) /.0807 ( wieght of cubic foot of air )

90/0.0807 = 1115.24 cfm


the TQ is there to support the engine using all of the aviable flow IMO. From what Ive seen over the years about 2cfm per ft lb is fairly normal. ive seen it as efficient as 1.75cfm pr ft lb and as bad as 2.25 but either way its middle of the road. given the bore stroke combination head flow and the ever critical runner length the TQ curve make sense to me.

I think the most important thing to note is power under the curve. This car makes literally gobs of power under the curve and If it were drag racing id shift it at 5600-5800rpm. it doesn't exhibit any of the normal problems seen with turbo cars like peaky power output. the turbo come on hard at around 3500rpm and stays on till around 5800rpm. nice wide power curve the car should hual some serious ass.

[SVTSINR]

Sean,
Thanks for posting some of the info. I'm not completely familiar with his combo i.e. c.i., heads but I thought he was running a t76.

I didn't quite understand your formula as I always use these for my own stuff:

(CID X RPM) / 3456 =CFM

CFM = (CID X RPM) / 3456 X VE

Assuming VE to be around 85%

CFM X .069 = LBS/MIN

I don't claim to be an expert as I only read the Turbocharging guide by Spencer Brown. I also don't want to post all of Dan's set up info on here either. Good luck to Dan in search for more boost!!!

[Baldie]

I would imagine that your car should put down more boost than that. The dyno probly did not just load the motor enough.

That in turn will not get the turbo spooling.

You sould be right around 8-900 hp maxed out wtih a 76 with the combo you have mentiond....

[WhiteHawk]

What an awesome combo! I want a torque curve like that in my Z28. That thing must be a blast to drive!

-Geoff

[TRBOBUICK]

I would imagine that your car should put down more boost than that. The dyno probly did not just load the motor enough.

That in turn will not get the turbo spooling.

You sould be right around 8-900 hp maxed out wtih a 76 with the combo you have mentiond....

Dont get hung up on dyno numbers. A t-76 will never support 900 at the tires.

[Sean124]

Sean,
Thanks for posting some of the info. I'm not completely familiar with his combo i.e. c.i., heads but I thought he was running a t76.

I didn't quite understand your formula as I always use these for my own stuff:

(CID X RPM) / 3456 =CFM

CFM = (CID X RPM) / 3456 X VE

Assuming VE to be around 85%

CFM X .069 = LBS/MIN

I don't claim to be an expert as I only read the Turbocharging guide by Spencer Brown. I also don't want to post all of Dan's set up info on here either. Good luck to Dan in search for more boost!!!

VE means nothing in turbo world. While its a good estimator its not the end all be all . the problem all the formulas run into is that only predict CFM for HP vs RPM not for airflow required to make a given amount of TQ. I will see if i can put the Mathmatical mdel together in what ittle spare time I've got. Migt be a few days, Rule of thumb is 2cfm per FT LB though

here is an interesting formula i found surinfg the net,

HP / 0.257 / cylinders = required airflow
we are shooting for 750hp

750/ 0.257 = 2918 cfm but that is going to depend on the TQ peak and peak rp, for hp.

HP formula is TQ x RPM / 5250 + HP

In the case of Dans car we have 632lb ft x 6200 RPM = 746hp.

Even using the most basic of calculations its fiarly obvious that the t76 is out of air regardless of the engine design.the only way to make 750hp with this particular turbo is to put it on a smaller engine and rev the snot out of it but it will still fall short.

[Sean124]

Sean,
Thanks for posting some of the info. I'm not completely familiar with his combo i.e. c.i., heads but I thought he was running a t76.

I didn't quite understand your formula as I always use these for my own stuff:

(CID X RPM) / 3456 =CFM

CFM = (CID X RPM) / 3456 X VE

Assuming VE to be around 85%

CFM X .069 = LBS/MIN

I don't claim to be an expert as I only read the Turbocharging guide by Spencer Brown. I also don't want to post all of Dan's set up info on here either. Good luck to Dan in search for more boost!!!


wow your CMF to lbs/minute number is very far off. should be CFM x 0.0807 to get lbs/min. CFM from pounds per minute lbs min/0.0807

[2L8IWIN]

Hey Dan,

Is this a T76 Q-Trim?

[dpmcghee]

Hey Dan,

Is this a T76 Q-Trim?



That would be the one... .96A/R on the hot side.

The problem is that I don't understand all this math when it comes to turbos, engine consumption, etc...

The other thing that I just don't understand is that if you go to www.turbomustangs.com and go to their dyno section (where people post their results from dyno sessions) there are quite a few people using this turbo on similar combos, and they are making upwards of 800hp and in some cases have even cracked the 900rwhp mark running 20+ lbs of boost.

Dan

[SVTSINR]

The other thing that I just don't understand is that if you go to www.turbomustangs.com and go to their dyno section (where people post their results from dyno sessions) there are quite a few people using this turbo on similar combos, and they are making upwards of 800hp and in some cases have even cracked the 900rwhp mark running 20+ lbs of boost.

Dan

Exactly.
I have never heard of a combo that couldn't make boost. I have seen overboosting to compensate for the turbo being to small taking the turbo out of the efficientcy range.

Dan,
I would read this for yourself and run through the calculations that way you can make the best decisions for your combo.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm#selectcompressor

[SVTSINR]

Compressor Selection
When using the formula's below, you will need to use compressor flow maps and work with the formulas until you size the compressor that will work for your application. Compressor flow maps are available from the manufacturer, do a search on the web, or use the maps I have provided. On the flow maps, the airflow requirements should fall somewhere between the surge line and the 60% efficiency line, the goal should be to get in the peak efficiency range at the point of your power peak. In this article I will walk through an example as I explain it.
Engine Airflow Requirements
In order to select a turbocharger, you must know how much air it must flow to reach your goal. You first need to figure the cubic feet per minute of air flowing through the engine at maximum rpm. The the formula to to this for a 4 stroke engine is:

(CID × RPM) ÷3456 = CFM

For a 2 stroke you divide by 1728 rather than 3456. Lets assume that you are turbocharging a 302 cubic inch engine That will redline at 6000 rpm.

(302 × 6000) ÷ 3456 = 524.3 CFM

The engine will flow 524.3 CFM of air assuming a 100% volumetric efficiency. Most street engines will have an 80-90% VE, so the CFM will need to be adjusted. Lets assume our 302 has an 85% VE.

524.3 × 0.85 = 445.7 CFM
Our 302 will actually flow 445.7 CFM with an 85% VE.
Pressure Ratio
The pressure ratio is simply the pressure in, compared to the pressure out of the turbocharger. The pressure in is usually atmospheric pressure, but may be slightly lower if the intake system before the turbo is restrictive, the inlet pressure could be higher than atmospheric if there is more than 1 turbocharger in series. In that case the inlet let pressure will be the outlet pressure of the turbo before it. If we want 10 psi of boost with atmospheric pressure as the inlet pressure, the formula would look like this:

(10 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 1.68:1 pressure ratio

Temperature Rise
A compressor will raise the temperature of air as it compresses it. As temperature increases, the volume of air also increases. There is an ideal temperature rise which is a temperature rise equivalent to the amount of work that it takes to compress the air. The formula to figure the ideal outlet temperature is:

T2 = T1 (P2 ÷ P1)0.283

Where:
T2 = Outlet Temperature °R
T1 = Inlet Temperature °R
°R = °F + 460
P1 = Inlet Pressure Absolute
P2 = Outlet Pressure Absolute

Lets assume that the inlet temperature is 75° F and we're going to want 10 psi of boost pressure. To figure T1 in °R, you will do this:

T1 = 75 + 460 = 535°R

The P1 inlet pressure will be atmospheric in our case and the P2 outlet pressure will be 10 psi above atmospheric. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, so the inlet pressure will be 14.7 psi, to figure the outlet pressure add the boost pressure to the inlet pressure.

P2 = 14.7 + 10 = 24.7 psi

For our example, we now have everything we need to figure out the ideal outlet temperature. We must plug this info into out formula to figure out T2:

T1 = 75
P1 = 14.7
P2 = 24.7

The formula will now look like this:

T2 = 535 (24.7 ÷ 14.7)0.283 = 620 °R

You then need to subtract 460 to get °F, so simply do this:

620 - 460 = 160 °F Ideal Outlet Temperature

This is a temperature rise of 85 °F

Adiabatic Efficiency
The above formula assumes a 100% adiabatic efficiency (AE), no loss or gain of heat. The actual temperature rise will certainly be higher than that. How much higher will depend on the adiabatic efficiency of the compressor, usually 60-75%. To figure the actual outlet temperature, you need this formula:

Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise ÷ AE = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise

Lets assume the compressor we are looking at has a 70% adiabatic efficiency at the pressure ratio and flow range we're dealing with. The outlet temperature will then be 30% higher than ideal. So at 70% it using our example, we'd need to do this:

85 ÷ 0.7 = 121 °F Actual Outlet Temperature Rise

Now we must add the temperature rise to the inlet temperature:

75 + 121 = 196 °F Actual Outlet Temperature
Density Ratio
As air is heated it expands and becomes less dense. This makes an increase in volume and flow. To compare the inlet to outlet air flow, you must know the density ratio. To figure out this ratio, use this formula:

(Inlet °R ÷ Outlet °R) × (Outlet Pressure ÷ Inlet Pressure) = Density Ratio

We have everything we need to figure this out. For our 302 example the formula will look like this:

(535 ÷ 656) × (24.7 ÷ 14.7) = 1.37 Density Ratio

Compressor Inlet Airflow
Using all the above information, you can figure out what the actual inlet flow in in CFM. Do do this, use this formula:

Outlet CFM × Density Ratio = Actual Inlet CFM

Using the same 302 in our examples, it would look like this:

447.5 CFM × 1.37 = 610.6 CFM Inlet Air Flow

That is about a 37% increase in airflow and the potential for 37% more power. When comparing to a compressor flow map that is in Pounds per Minute (lbs/min), multiply CFM by 0.069 to convert CFM to lbs/min.

610.6 CFM × 0.069 = 42.1 lbs/min

Now you can use these formula's along with flow maps to select a compressor to match your engine. You should play with a few adiabatic efficiency numbers and pressure ratios to get good results. For twin turbo's, remember that each turbo will only flow 1/2 the total airflow.

Using Your Numbers
A turbocharger compressor map has two axis. On the x-axis (the horizontal one) is the airflow, often in lbs/minute. On the y-axis is the pressure ratio, usually as "1+boost pressure", in bar. Inside the map there are plots for turbine rpm, more or less horizontal lines, efficiency (oval rings) and most often also surge limit - a dotted line.

To use the map, you need to know the airflow you will have through the engine.

Using this value, you can use a map. Draw a line from your air flow (lbs/min) on the x-axis, and a line from the pressure ratio (psi + 14.7 ÷14.7 ). The point of intersection will hopefully be inside one of the higher efficiency rings, about 70%.

You should always have the intersection to the right of the surge limit, otherwise it is no good.

The way to do this is to plot 5-10 intersections (different rpms and boost pressures) in different maps. By having maps for different turbos, and trying different boost pressures and rpm, you can get an idea of how it’s going to work.

Remember this only gives an estimate, you might have to resort to trial and error to get exactly spot on. This way, however, you can be reasonably sure you are in the right ballpark.

1 bar = 14.50377 PSI

1 PSI = 0.06894757 bar

[TRBOBUICK]

Remember though, more cubes, better flowing heads and intake, and the psi wont build. Raj had trouble making more than 22 psi last year, i have a smaller engine and peanut port heads and found out last year that the same turbo will make 30+ .

I guess it all boils down to this: if dans mustang runs mid/bottom nines, who cares what the dyno says ?

[Sean124]

That would be the one... .96A/R on the hot side.

The problem is that I don't understand all this math when it comes to turbos, engine consumption, etc...

The other thing that I just don't understand is that if you go to www.turbomustangs.com and go to their dyno section (where people post their results from dyno sessions) there are quite a few people using this turbo on similar combos, and they are making upwards of 800hp and in some cases have even cracked the 900rwhp mark running 20+ lbs of boost.

Dan


We are focusing to much on HP and not enough on AVG TQ production. you've got TQ in Spades and the TQ if it could hold out to 6200rpm would be well north of 750hp. ALso Boost is a restriction to airflow.

Also the airflow formula Robh is using is still wrong. I grabbed this wright off of the wieghts and standards website.

FINAL ANSWER: 1 cubic foot of air at standard temperature and pressure assuming average composition weighs approximately 0.0807 lbs.

[dpmcghee]

Well guys, I just pulled all eight sparkplugs and they are all fouled beyond belief - black as can be... I'm not sure why. Several of them were only finger tight as well.

Also, I changed the oil and decided to empty the oil in the catch-can which is connected to the driver side valve cover...guess what came out? Radiator fluid. Greeeeeeaaaaaatttttt.....

Its strange. There was zero radiator fluid in the pan. The oil was not milky at all. But there is definately a leak into the motor somewhere because the catch can was full of green fluid:dontknow: headgasket?


Dan

[91trunk]

Dan,

What head gaskets are you using?

[Sean124]

Well guys, I just pulled all eight sparkplugs and they are all fouled beyond belief - black as can be... I'm not sure why. Several of them were only finger tight as well.

Also, I changed the oil and decided to empty the oil in the catch-can which is connected to the driver side valve cover...guess what came out? Radiator fluid. Greeeeeeaaaaaatttttt.....

Its strange. There was zero radiator fluid in the pan. The oil was not milky at all. But there is definately a leak into the motor somewhere because the catch can was full of green fluid:dontknow: headgasket?


Dan

Sounds like the plug issue is just needing to tweak the tune a bit. Plugs can and do work themselves loose. The more power you make the more the head will flex the more likely it is to have a plug get loose.

Been reading on cometics which is what I thought you said was in there. Very prone to weeping coolant. The other possiability is Intake manifold gasket or lack of headstud TQ.

[91trunk]

Been reading on cometics which is what I thought you said was in there. Very prone to weeping coolant. The other possiability is Intake manifold gasket or lack of headstud TQ.

That's what I was gonna say. I would retorque the head studs.

[SVTSINR]

That's what I was gonna say. I would retorque the head studs.


Dan,
did you use the correct ARP thread sealer for studs in the coolant passages?

[91trunk]

Dan,
did you use the correct ARP thread sealer for studs in the coolant passages?

Oh yeah. I forgot about that stuff. It's gray and ARP makes it.

[TRBOBUICK]

GM coolant tabs work the best. They look like fiber pills . Drop all 6 in.

[LTLHOMER]

Well guys, I just pulled all eight sparkplugs and they are all fouled beyond belief - black as can be... I'm not sure why. Several of them were only finger tight as well.

Also, I changed the oil and decided to empty the oil in the catch-can which is connected to the driver side valve cover...guess what came out? Radiator fluid. Greeeeeeaaaaaatttttt.....

Its strange. There was zero radiator fluid in the pan. The oil was not milky at all. But there is definately a leak into the motor somewhere because the catch can was full of green fluid:dontknow: headgasket?


Dan
My oil catch can gets a little bit of water too but I don't know if it's from water condensing inside the reservoir or if it's getting in the bad way...I can't really tell the color because I run straight water + water-wetter and it barely has a tint if at all.

You might be fine...I emptied some water outta mine at the beginning of the season but haven't had any issues with the car making power or going down the track at all.

[orangejuiced86]

Im not sure. Sean had the load cranked up on both of our cars. Important thing is the 02's are commanded for a safe a/f and thats what counts. Sean is going to help me with some track tuning.

Thats cool, I just dont see the "TRACK TUNING" lasting that long without any type of safety equipment.

[orangejuiced86]

I had a coolant leak. It was coming from the back of the engine somewhere. I checked the oil and found nothing so I just used some bars leak and it sealed whatever was leaking.

[TRBOBUICK]

Thats cool, I just dont see the "TRACK TUNING" lasting that long without any type of safety equipment.

I have saftey eqipment. I have a helmet, long wheel studs, and good brakes. 12 inch rotors in front, 11 out back. ;)

[orangejuiced86]

I have saftey eqipment. I have a helmet, long wheel studs, and good brakes. 12 inch rotors in front, 11 out back. ;)

Sweet, glad to see the tracks have lightened up on their rules. I was worried I was going to have to spend more money this winter, lol.

[TRBOBUICK]

Sweet, glad to see the tracks have lightened up on their rules. I was worried I was going to have to spend more money this winter, lol.

No cage for you either ? My shit has only gone 11.7o anyway...well above the cage rule.

[orangejuiced86]

No cage for you either ? My shit has only gone 11.7o anyway...well above the cage rule.

Fuck it, im gonna cut it out since its not needed!

[orangejuiced86]

Seriously though, are you ever going to put a bar in that car?

[TRBOBUICK]

I have a cage now. Just have to weld it in. Maybee.

[orangejuiced86]

Just put the bars in the trunk and when the tracks asks "where is your cage?" you can reply with "right back here"!

[orangejuiced86]

I hope they kick me out tuesday!! It means my shit will finally be right!

[orangejuiced86]

Avoidance ? Does warren put crack in the water? You guys are fucking stoned.


Actually, warren has its very nice areas and its very shitty areas. Not sure they all share the same water.

[TRBOBUICK]

LOL

[502SS]

Moral of the story is...dyno numbers are gay and so are turbobuicks. lol

I know it. I hate a 10 second car that I get mid 20 MPG, has A/C, CC, PW, PL, PS, bla bla bla that I can drive ANYWHERE :icon_mrgr stupid turbo cars!

[dpmcghee]

Sounds like the plug issue is just needing to tweak the tune a bit. Plugs can and do work themselves loose. The more power you make the more the head will flex the more likely it is to have a plug get loose.

Been reading on cometics which is what I thought you said was in there. Very prone to weeping coolant. The other possiability is Intake manifold gasket or lack of headstud TQ.


Sean,

I'm still mystified as to how so much green water ended up in the catch can. But still, there was ZERO water in the pan. Weird, huh?

I've heard the same thing about the cometics. Only thing is I didn't have this problem at all last year and the year before with Cometics on my old combo. Anyways, I'm going to relash the Rockers this weekend and will definately double check the headstuds as far as the torque issue is concerned.

I put new plugs in it and it seems to run smoother now, but it still seems to be running a bit rich on the bottom end. I just think that the injectors might be a tad too big...:dontknow:

I want to bring the car back up to fix a few small issues that I'm having such as - line lock doesn't work and a few other items like that.

Thanks for your help.

Dan

[dpmcghee]

Ltlhomer and Turbobuick,

I like both of you guys and I really like both of your cars. In fact, if they are ever stolen, you may want to check my garage first (even though I'm a pastor...the Lord is forgiving, right?:icon_mrgr ).

However, you guys need to keep your on-going pissing match out of my thread:wink:

I want to read responses that are helpful to the challenges that I am facing with this Ford PIECE OF CRAP!!! (do you sense my frustration at this point:icon_eek: )

Both of you guys know what it is like to be frustrated with your car, so I know that you'll both understand where I am coming from at this point.

Thanks guys,

Dan

[LTLHOMER]

Ltlhomer and Turbobuick,

I like both of you guys and I really like both of your cars. In fact, if they are ever stolen, you may want to check my garage first (even though I'm a pastor...the Lord is forgiving, right?:icon_mrgr ).

However, you guys need to keep your on-going pissing match out of my thread:wink:

I want to read responses that are helpful to the challenges that I am facing with this Ford PIECE OF CRAP!!! (do you sense my frustration at this point:icon_eek: )

Both of you guys know what it is like to be frustrated with your car, so I know that you'll both understand where I am coming from at this point.

Thanks guys,

Dan
You got it homie. I'll delete my junk as well as this post in a few minutes.

[2L8IWIN]

Dan,
What kind of wastegate/boost controller are you using?

[dpmcghee]

Dan,
What kind of wastegate/boost controller are you using?


The wastegate is a Tial 44mm. The boost controller is just a manual/vacuum controller that came with the kit. I'm thinking that I just might order some springs from Tial (or if someone has some that I can borrow???) that would up the boost via the springs.

On Tial website, they show several combinations of springs that will enable my wastegate to make 15, 18 and even 20lbs of boost based on the spring combinations. If I put those in and the turbo produces more boost, then I will know for sure that the boost controller is not working correctly.

Any other thoughts?

Dan

[dpmcghee]

You got it homie. I'll delete my junk as well as this post in a few minutes.


Thanks man. Any help that you can give would be appreciated.

dan

[SVTSINR]

Dan beat me to it.

He needs springs...

[TRBOBUICK]

You guys are not getting it, springs will not give you more boost, the wastegate isnt opening now with the spring that is in it. The turbo is maxxed out. His heads flow great and his cubes are up there. PSI does not = power.

Dan, dont take this wrong but : stop messing with it and take it to the track. Will the boost numbers or dyno numbers mean anything if it runs a bottom nine ? NO.

I mean at 12 psi i made 560 hp and 750 lb ft. Its just a number on the dyno and means squat to me.

[orangejuiced86]

I dont believe in dyno numbers, I do believe in using a dyno as a tuning aid though. My buddys car made like 480hp at the tires on a mustang dyno, yet went 10.0's@135 in a 3400lb car.

[2L8IWIN]

I was using rodriguez's wastegate when i first started tunning my car...it made 22psi@5600 RPM's....way to much for my fuel system. His wastegate has a 17lb spring.

I threw in my wastegate with a 9lb spring and ended up making 15lb of boost (it would creep as the rpm's went up, but maxed at 15).

I dont have a boost controller.

It looks like your turbo is rated to 900/1000hp? How were you verifying the wastegate was never opening?


The wastegate is a Tial 44mm. The boost controller is just a manual/vacuum controller that came with the kit. I'm thinking that I just might order some springs from Tial (or if someone has some that I can borrow???) that would up the boost via the springs.

On Tial website, they show several combinations of springs that will enable my wastegate to make 15, 18 and even 20lbs of boost based on the spring combinations. If I put those in and the turbo produces more boost, then I will know for sure that the boost controller is not working correctly.

Any other thoughts?

Dan

[RyeLou]

I say try the springs. They shouldn't cost much so if it isn't it you're not out much before trying something else.

On my set-up I get about 21psi at the top of 3rd. If I wanted to go too much higher than what I'm at I would have to get the stiffer spring and let that do more work and turn the boost controller I have down. If I were to go up to 23psi or more I'd definitly be doing it.

[LTLHOMER]

Yeh how are you verifying wastegate isn't opening? Run your reference line to just the top port of the gate and you can be sure it's not opening then...just watch the boost in case it really just wasn't opening because then you will see how much power that turbo will make. Do you know what your iat's were through your dyno pulls? Those can tell you a lot of things as well if you have something to compare to.

[dpmcghee]

OK, last night I spent some time playing around with the wastegate. I actually disconnected the vacuum lines from the waste gate (I plugged them up so that there would be no vacuum leaks) then took it out for a spin.

Well, with great care I began getting into it while watching the boost gauge very carefully... I discovered - this turbo won't make any more boost on my motor. 13-14lbs is it. I was hoping to see the gage go up to 17 or 18lbs, but it just wouldn't go there.

Dan

[SVTSINR]

Dan, your hot side exhaust pressure is overpowering your 10lb spring. If you put a pen spring in there you wouldn't expect to see 18 lbs? Try to find the correct springs today for 18 lbs because it's the cheapest fix.

[Sean124]

Sean,

I'm still mystified as to how so much green water ended up in the catch can. But still, there was ZERO water in the pan. Weird, huh?

I've heard the same thing about the cometics. Only thing is I didn't have this problem at all last year and the year before with Cometics on my old combo. Anyways, I'm going to relash the Rockers this weekend and will definately double check the headstuds as far as the torque issue is concerned.

I put new plugs in it and it seems to run smoother now, but it still seems to be running a bit rich on the bottom end. I just think that the injectors might be a tad too big...:dontknow:

I want to bring the car back up to fix a few small issues that I'm having such as - line lock doesn't work and a few other items like that.

Thanks for your help.

Dan

Line lock isn't working ?? we checked it twice Maybe the tire failure knocked some wiring loose ?

Yeah i had talked to Ron about the plugs loading up what were gonna have to do is street drive it a bit and find the errant fuel cell/Cells that are overfueling. I went back through the file thats in the car and i don;t see anything thats really out of whack but those big nozzles might be having some linearity issues at very low load/rpm.

Sean

[Sean124]

Dan, your hot side exhaust pressure is overpowering your 10lb spring. If you put a pen spring in there you wouldn't expect to see 18 lbs? Try to find the correct springs today for 18 lbs because it's the cheapest fix.

I have video of the car making a pull somewhere and the gate never once opened.

[SVTSINR]

How can you tell?

[TRBOBUICK]

Dans wastegate is right up front, they had to move the dyno straps way over so it wouldnt burn it. I watched 10 runs and it NEVER opened, so the backpressure is not opening the wastegate.

[LTLHOMER]

Dans wastegate is right up front, they had to move the dyno straps way over so it wouldnt burn it. I watched 10 runs and it NEVER opened, so the backpressure is not opening the wastegate.
Then I'd say it's safe to assume he's outta turbo...a 76 is pretty small for the badass bullet that he has trying to huff through it.

[TRBOBUICK]

Then I'd say it's safe to assume he's outta turbo...a 76 is pretty small for the badass bullet that he has trying to huff through it.

Dan , i agree with homer. ( waiting for the lightning bolt) Even if it is out of turbo, its going to be a rocket ship. It sounds like you have a definate 9 sec street car. Just enjoy it !!!!!!

[SVTSINR]

Dans wastegate is right up front, they had to move the dyno straps way over so it wouldnt burn it. I watched 10 runs and it NEVER opened, so the backpressure is not opening the wastegate.

Why are they worried about burning straps when it never opens? Next time he does a pull put your hand on it and let us know if it opens. You can't tell someone that is running a similiar turbo to Raj's turbo that he is done at 14lbs and 200 plus horsepower less.

[Sean124]

Why are they worried about burning straps when it never opens? Next time he does a pull put your hand on it and let us know if it opens. You can't tell someone that is running a similiar turbo to Raj's turbo that he is done at 14lbs and 200 plus horsepower less.

I thought Raj was running a GT42 or something similar. A t76 isn;t half the turbo a gt42 anything is. Secondly HP isn't nearly as important as AVG TQ under the Cruve which this mustang has tons of. Go look at the dyno sheet.

[TRBOBUICK]

Rob, the gt4276 and a t-76 are about 250 hp diffrence, they are nothing alike other than inlet mm. Completly diffrent generation of turbo. the gt7642 flows as much air as the t88 . When it was strapped down the first time , the strap was about 5 inches from the wastegate outlet. I saw that and someone else moved the strap just in case it did open.

I was about 3 feet avay on 5 or so runs and was asked to see if the wastegate opened.

[LTLHOMER]

Rob, the gt4276 and a t-76 are about 250 hp diffrence, they are nothing alike other than inlet mm. Completly diffrent generation of turbo. the gt7642 flows as much air as the t88 . When it was strapped down the first time , the strap was about 5 inches from the wastegate outlet. I saw that and someone else moved the strap just in case it did open.

I was about 3 feet avay on 5 or so runs and was asked to see if the wastegate opened.
No standing around at cars...if you are there, you just might be put to work! :)

I should strap mine down for a few pulls just to see what numbers it says and see if they correlate to my trap speeds.

[SVTSINR]

This is off precision's website

PT-76 1100HP 3.020" 4.030" 56 4" / 3" 360 Race Tan .81 or .96 GT-S 3.200" 2.960" 85

GT-42 1100hp 94mm, 102mm 53, 56 0.60 Standard 82mm 84 1.15

Guys don't get me wrong I don't care about horsepower numbers on the dyno or boost numbers but in real road testing I can't believe he is max out at 14. I would believe that exhaust backpressure at 2:1 would open that 10lb spring enough to bleed boost. But before I started ordering turbos I would try the $20 springs no matter what...

[Sean124]

This is off precision's website

PT-76 1100HP 3.020" 4.030" 56 4" / 3" 360 Race Tan .81 or .96 GT-S 3.200" 2.960" 85

GT-42 1100hp 94mm, 102mm 53, 56 0.60 Standard 82mm 84 1.15

Guys don't get me wrong I don't care about horsepower numbers on the dyno or boost numbers but in real road testing I can't believe he is max out at 14. I would believe that exhaust backpressure at 2:1 would open that 10lb spring enough to bleed boost. But before I started ordering turbos I would try the $20 springs no matter what...


Its not a precision pt76 its a Turbonetics 76.

[SVTSINR]

Its not a precision pt76 its a Turbonetics 76.

Off of turbonetics website

6.0L T-76 .96 A/R 1000 HP

I'll be curious what he traps...

[91trunk]

Dan just meet me at our past spot tonight. I'll bring the VHT. :D

[Sean124]

Off of turbonetics website

6.0L T-76 .96 A/R 1000 HP

I'll be curious what he traps...


The turbo only flow 90lbs minute. thats 1152cfm. thats not enough CFM to make 1000hp.

[SVTSINR]

HP / 0.257 / cylinders = required airflow
we are shooting for 750hp

750/ 0.257 = 2918 cfm but that is going to depend on the TQ peak and peak rp, for hp.

HP formula is TQ x RPM / 5250 + HP

In the case of Dans car we have 632lb ft x 6200 RPM = 746hp.

.

Sean,
where did you get the 6200 in this equation?

wasn't it 635 x 4300 / 5252 = 520?

[Sean124]

Sean,
where did you get the 6200 in this equation?

wasn't it 635 x 4300 / 5252 = 520?


My point was that if the TQ curve didn't fall off 6200 it would be north of 750hp.

[Fryguy302]

Guys, you have to remember, it's not just the total amount of airflow the unit is rated at, it also matters where the turbo is at on the map.

The turbo I ran was a GT42-76, much stronger turbo than an old school t-76. If you look at the map, that 4276 would actually have been much happier on a smaller motor....which is why Brian is such a cocky mofo about his car lol...that turbo will make more power on a smaller motor than it did on my car.

The T76 is the same way. It might make 1000hp on a supra, but I don't know if it will make that much on Dan's car. I know it sounds fucked up, but that's part of the turbo learning curve. Who knows, it might even make 1000 on a real shitty 302, but not on Dan's bad ass "302".

Here's a real word example: Take that GT42-76 I ran last year. 3200# Mustang, kind of a shitty 347 cubic inch motor with faggoty cylinder heads that won't rev past 6000rpm. 155mph @ 3200#.

Take that same turbo (exact same A/R and everything) and put it on a bad ass built 370cid LS1 with nice heads that revs to 7000rpm. My buddy's did that. The car was a slug bitch. The turbo made boost, but the car was a turd, ran like mid 10's. Take that overworked 4276 off, bolt on an S88, and that same car goes like 150mph on the limiter at 1000ft. That car will probably exceed 158mph now that it has the proper turbo on it.

If you look at the map, the data tells you the reason. If you take the airflow consumption of a each motor at the given boost level, and see where it is on the map, it's happy on my car, not very happy on the superior motor. That T76, on the map that I looked at, will not be happy on Dan's motor. Just my never very humble opinion.

[dpmcghee]

Guys, you have to remember, it's not just the total amount of airflow the unit is rated at, it also matters where the turbo is at on the map.

The turbo I ran was a GT42-76, much stronger turbo than an old school t-76. If you look at the map, that 4276 would actually have been much happier on a smaller motor....which is why Brian is such a cocky mofo about his car lol...that turbo will make more power on a smaller motor than it did on my car.

The T76 is the same way. It might make 1000hp on a supra, but I don't know if it will make that much on Dan's car. I know it sounds fucked up, but that's part of the turbo learning curve. Who knows, it might even make 1000 on a real shitty 302, but not on Dan's bad ass "302".

Here's a real word example: Take that GT42-76 I ran last year. 3200# Mustang, kind of a shitty 347 cubic inch motor with faggoty cylinder heads that won't rev past 6000rpm. 155mph @ 3200#.

Take that same turbo (exact same A/R and everything) and put it on a bad ass built 370cid LS1 with nice heads that revs to 7000rpm. My buddy's did that. The car was a slug bitch. The turbo made boost, but the car was a turd, ran like mid 10's. Take that overworked 4276 off, bolt on an S88, and that same car goes like 150mph on the limiter at 1000ft. That car will probably exceed 158mph now that it has the proper turbo on it.

If you look at the map, the data tells you the reason. If you take the airflow consumption of a each motor at the given boost level, and see where it is on the map, it's happy on my car, not very happy on the superior motor. That T76, on the map that I looked at, will not be happy on Dan's motor. Just my never very humble opinion.


I fear that I over-built the motor for this turbo... combine the 4.125bore, 348ci with a set of really good flowing cylinder heads, and this thing wants more air...

I'm going to try the $20.00 18lb. spring that Rob is recommending, but if that doesn't work, then I'm going to begin looking for a great deal on a larger turbo... Anyone want to buy a virtually brand new, polished TurboneticsT-76?:icon_mrgr

Dan

[Sean124]

Take it to the track its gonna go fast.

[LTLHOMER]

You didn't build too good of a motor you just put on too small of a turbo. But that's an easy fix. :)

[orangejuiced86]

I would say, go to a track and see where you are at now just for a basline. Dont race dyno numbers, even more so on mustang dynos.

[91trunk]

I would rather upgrade a turbo then an engine. At least you already have the supporting hardware for a bigger turbo.

So ya gonna give me a shot at her while I have a chance :D

[Fryguy302]

You didn't build too good of a motor you just put on too small of a turbo. But that's an easy fix. :)


Exactly. It will still be fast though.

[dpmcghee]

I would rather upgrade a turbo then an engine. At least you already have the supporting hardware for a bigger turbo.

So ya gonna give me a shot at her while I have a chance :D



You know that I'll be glad to:icon_mrgr Before I romp on it any more, I definately need to adjust these rockers. A few of them are clankin' around worse than a solid roller cam. I should get this finished up tomorrow sometime. I'll give you a call when I'm ready then we can go have some fun:peelout:

Dan

[SVTSINR]

ok Dan, it's been a week. Where's the springs and an update?

[98 Camaro]

Listen to Raj he loves statistics.....and is right. However, Dyno's and turbo's don't mix. Take the car to the track. Dyno's don't load turbo cars right and in my opinion your car's tune-up will be a little off and will make more than 600hp.

I bet it spoils instantly:peelout:

[dpmcghee]

ok Dan, it's been a week. Where's the springs and an update?


Rob,

I've been working on some other stuff, so I really haven't had much time to mess with the car. I'll let you know when I get further along.

Dan

[dpmcghee]

Listen to Raj he loves statistics.....and is right. However, Dyno's and turbo's don't mix. Take the car to the track. Dyno's don't load turbo cars right and in my opinion your car's tune-up will be a little off and will make more than 600hp.

I bet it spoils instantly:peelout:


Only problem with your theory is that the car makes the same exact amount of boost whether its on the dyno or making a banzi run down the street.

Something else is up... I've got some other ideas, but when all is said and done I believe that this turbo may just be able to make more power on this combo.

Dan