The Sick Man of the Midwest. Michigan — a liberal failure.

[Scooter70]

The Sick Man of the Midwest
Michigan — a liberal failure.

By Rich Lowry

Liberals dissatisfied with the Bush economy have, through the wonders of federalism, an alternative. They can move to Michigan. The state represents a rough approximation of ideal liberal economic policy. It is heavily unionized, taxed, and regulated in a failed attempt to close its eyes to the dynamic forces of the market and globalization all around it.

This stew has helped make Michigan the economic sick man of the Midwest. It is suffering from a one-state recession all its own, mostly because it has failed to foster the most profound economic force in the universe — opportunity. The state has been losing out to more business-friendly environs both overseas and in other states for decades, but has refused to adapt accordingly.

That’s why anyone moving to Michigan to enjoy the stifling taxes and burdensome unionization will be lonely. According to the free-market Mackinac Center for Public Policy’s analysis of United Van Lines data, Michigan is now the No. 1 state in the continental United States for outbound traffic. An estimated 65 percent of the moving company’s Michigan interstate traffic is families moving out of the state, headed to more economically open and vital destinations. As an official in Wyoming put it, “Michigan has been very good for us.”

This has given Michigan the rarest of breeds this election year, a vulnerable Democrat in the person of incumbent Gov. Jennifer Granholm. As Republicans often point out, Michigan was the only state in the country not hit by Hurricane Katrina to lose jobs between September 2004 and September 2005. The state unemployment rate just ticked up again to 7.1 percent, substantially above the nation’s rate of 4.7 percent. The rate of growth of its per capita gross state product is 49th in the nation; lowly Mississippi is 44th.

Michael LaFaive of the Mackinac Center calls Michigan “the France of North America.” Economically competitive states might have a personal income tax, or corporate income tax, or sales tax — Michigan has all three. It has long been the only state with a European-style, value-added tax — the Single Business Tax. A company can be in bankruptcy and still have a tax liability, making Michigan a bad state even to lose money in. In a 2002 filing for relief from the tax, General Motors explained that it would operate at a loss, but one of its projects would still create a $7 million-a-year tax liability.

Michigan recently repealed the Single Business Tax effective at the end of 2007, but has punted the decision about how to replace it. A relative moderate, Gov. Granholm has resisted general tax increases, but levied new fees, sin taxes and other “revenue enhancers.” The state still insists on trying to target tax incentives and other special breaks to favored businesses, in a doomed replay of 1970s-era industrial policy.

Meanwhile, unions make the state an inhospitable place to do business. A company can be bankrupt in Michigan and still face threats of a strike, as Northwest Airlines and the auto-parts maker Delphi have learned. Michigan’s unionization rate of 21.8 percent is much higher than the national average of 13.5 percent. This accounts for it having the second-highest unit-labor cost in the nation, according to the Mackinac Center. States with right-to-work laws, and consequently less unionization, experience more growth and create more jobs, at the expense of troglodytes like Michigan.

It used to be that unions could force unnaturally high wages and benefits on U.S. manufacturers, and the costs would be passed along to consumers. Those were the days prior to globalization when the U.S. auto industry had a lock on the domestic market and experienced little international competition. It was inevitable that Michigan would find the new competition disruptive, but not that it would react to it so poorly.

The way to thrive in a globalized environment is to create a low-tax economy without the rigidities that come with heavy unionization and regulation. For those who disagree, Michigan beckons.

— Rich Lowry is author of Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years.

© 2006 by King Features Syndicate

[stalked_R/T]

Well said.

[postban]

GOOD READ!

+1

[Fryguy302]

Wow.

[91Notch]

GOOD READ!

+1

2x

[uluz2a6]

BUSH MAKES MICHIGAN LOOK GREAT!!!


Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best, "The louder he spoke of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." And no administration in U.S. history has spoken louder, or as often, of its honor.

So let us count our spoons.

Emergency Management: They completely failed to manage the first large-scale emergency since 9/11. Despite all their big talk and hundreds of billions of dollars spent on homeland security over the past four years, this administration proved itself stunningly incompetent when faced with an actual emergency.

Fiscal Management: America is broke. No wait, we're worse than broke. In less than five years these borrow and spend-thrifts have nearly doubled our national debt, to a stunning $8.2 trillion. These are not your father's Republicans who treated public dollars as though they were an endangered species. These Republicans waste money in ways and in quantities that make those old tax and spend liberals of yore look like tight-fisted Scots.

This administration is so incompetent that you can just throw a dart at the front page of your morning paper and whatever story of importance it hits will prove my point.

Katrina relief: Eleven thousand spanking new mobile homes sinking into the Arkansas mud. Seems no one in the administration knew there were federal and state laws prohibiting trailers in flood zones. Oops. That little mistake cost you $850 million -- and counting.

Medicare Drug Program: This $50 billion white elephant debuted by trampling many of those it was supposed to save. The mess forced states to step in and try to save its own citizens from being killed by the administration's poorly planned and executed attempt to privatize huge hunks of the federal health safety net.

Afghanistan: Good managers know that in order to pocket the gains of a project, you have to finish it. This administration started out fine in Afghanistan. They had the Taliban and al Queda on the run and Osama bin Laden trapped in a box canyon. Then they were distracted by a nearby shiney object -- Iraq. We are now $75 billion out of pocket in Afghanistan and its sitting president still rules only within the confines of the nation's capital. Tribal warlords, the growing remnants of the Taliban and al Qaeda call the shots in the rest of the county.

Iraq: This ill-begotten war was supposed to only cost us $65 billion. It has now cost us over $300 billion and continues to suck $6 billion a month out of our children's futures. Meanwhile the three warring tribes Bush "liberated" are using our money and soldiers' lives to partition the country. The Shiites and Kurds are carving out the prime cuts while treating the once-dominant Sunnis the same way the Israelis treat the Palestinians, forcing them onto Iraq's version of Death Valley. Meanwhile Iran is increasingly calling the shots in the Shiite region as mullahs loyal to Iran take charge.

Iran: The administration not only jinxed its Afghanistan operations by attacking Iraq, but also provided Iran both the rationale for and time to move toward nuclear weapons. The Bush administration's neocons' threats to attack Syria next only provided more support for religious conservatives within Iran who argued U.S. intentions in the Middle East were clear, and that only the deterrent that comes with nuclear weapons could protect them.
North Korea: Ditto. Also add to all the above the example North Korea set for Iran. Clearly once a country possesses nukes, the U.S. drops the veiled threats and wants to talk.

Social Programs: It's easier to get affordable -- even free -- American-style medical care, paid for with American dollars, if you are injured in Iraq, Afghanistan or are victims of a Pakistani earthquake, than if you live and pay taxes in the good old U.S.A. Nearly 50 million Americans can't afford medical insurance. Nevertheless the administration has proposed a budget that will cut $40 billion from domestic social programs, including health care for the working poor. The administration is quick to say that those services will be replaced by its "faith-based" programs. Not so fast...

"Despite the Bush administration's rhetorical support for religious charities, the amount of direct federal grants to faith-based organizations declined from 2002 to 2004, according to a major new study released yesterday....The study released yesterday "is confirmation of the suspicion I've had all along, that what the faith-based initiative is really all about is de-funding social programs and dumping responsibility for the poor on the charitable sector," said Kay Guinane, director of the nonprofit advocacy program at OMB Watch.."

The Military: Overused and over-deployed.

Former Defense Secretary William Perry and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright warned in a 15-page report that the Army and Marine Corps cannot sustain the current operational tempo without "doing real damage to their forces." ... Speaking at a news conference to release the study, Albright said she is "very troubled" the military will not be able to meet demands abroad. Perry warned that the strain, "if not relieved, can have highly corrosive and long-term effects on the military.

With military budgets gutted by the spiraling costs of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the administration has requested funding for fewer National Guard troops in fiscal 2007 -- 17,000 fewer. Which boggles the sane mind since, if it weren't for reserve/National Guard, the administration would not have had enough troops to rotate forces in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly 40 percent of the troops sent to those two countries were from the reserve and National Guard.

The Environment: Here's a little pop quiz: What happens if all the coral in the world's oceans dies? Answer: Coral is the first rung on the food-chain ladder; so when it goes, everything else in the ocean dies. And if the oceans die, we die.

The coral in the world's oceans are dying (called "bleaching") at an alarming and accelerating rate. Global warming is the culprit. Nevertheless, this administration continues as the world's leading global warming denier. Why? Because they seem to feel it's more cost effective to be dead than to force reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. How stupid is that? And time is running out.

Trade: We are approaching a $1 trillion annual trade deficit, most of it with Asia, $220 billion with just China -- just last year.

Energy: Record high energy prices. Record energy company profits. Dick Cheney's energy task force meetings remain secret. Need I say more?

Consumers: Americans finally did it last year -- they achieved a negative savings rate. (Folks in China save 10 percent, for contrast.) If the government can spend more than it makes and just say "charge it" when it runs out, so can we. The average American now owes $9,000 to credit card companies. Imagine that.

Human Rights: America now runs secret prisons and a secret judicial system that would give Kafka fits. And the U.S. has joined the list of nations that tortures prisioners of war. (Shut up George! We have pictures!)
I could go on for another 1,000 words listing the stunning incompetence of the Bush administration and its GOP sycophants in Congress. But what's the use? No seems to give a fig. The sun continues to shine in this fool's paradise. House starts were up in January. The stock market is finally back over 11,000.

But don't bother George W. Bush with any of this. While seldom right, he is never in doubt. Doubt is Bush's enemy. Worry? How can he worry when he has no doubts?

Me? Well, I worry about all the above, all the time. But in particular, I worry about coral.



BUSH MAKES MICHIGAN LOOK GREAT!!!

[91trunk]

What does that have to do with Michigan? That stupid WHORE hasn't done shit for this state except to tax the fuck out of hard working people.

She gives the white trash and ghetto sluts more and more money to keep having more puppies.

[uluz2a6]

What does that have to do with Michigan? That stupid WHORE hasn't done shit for this state except to tax the fuck out of hard working people.

She gives the white trash and ghetto sluts more and more money to keep having more puppies.

Lower taxes for business help the RICH. Do you think business shares it's saving with the workforce? HELL NO.

People who have $$$$ make the rules.. Do you want Business (Republicans) to write the rules for the workforce? Or do you want the PEOPLE (Democrats) to write the laws?

[Foolsgold80z]

I own my own business. Guess. :bored:

[91trunk]

Lower taxes for business help the RICH. Do you think business shares it's saving with the workforce? HELL NO.

People who have $$$$ make the rules.. Do you want Business (Republicans) to write the rules for the workforce? Or do you want the PEOPLE (Democrats) to write the laws?

Yes I want the Business people to write the rules. That will help ME.

I don't give two shits about the crack whore in the ghetto or the meth head in the trailer park. FUCK THEM.

I want to make a good living. I don't want to pay for them to be the pieces of shit our state keeps paying them to be.

[uluz2a6]

Yes I want the Business people to write the rules. That will help ME.


LOL!!!! You ACTUALLY think Business give a crap about people vs. THEIR $$$??

LOL!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[stalked_R/T]

typical liberal. Can't stand up to critism.

[91trunk]

LOL!!!! You ACTUALLY think Business give a crap about people vs. THEIR $$$??

LOL!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

When you own a business they do.

Look at what the Unions have done to this state. The Unions are about 85% full of Democratic thinking people. Guess what? Because of them Michigan automakers are going else where.

[uluz2a6]

When you own a business they do.

Look at what the Unions have done to this state. The Unions are about 85% full of Democratic thinking people. Guess what? Because of them Michigan automakers are going else where.


LOL!!!! You ACTUALLY think Business give a crap about people vs. THEIR $$$??

Thanks for PROVING my point! Michigan Automakers are going elsewhere... WHY??? CHEAP LABOR.

Cheap labor = Michigan standard of living goes DOWN.

You can thank Big Business.

[lab1702]

Thanks for PROVING my point! Michigan Automakers are going elsewhere... WHY??? CHEAP LABOR.

Does that mean you agree that one of the problems facing companies in Michigan is the higher cost of labor?

If so, how would you suggest fixing the problem?

The only way I see is if the cost here is adjusted so it is not higher. I don't think doing it the other way around is gonna work... not like we can ask China, India etc. to please pay their workers more.

But maybe there's another way that I'm not seeing.

[Sean124]

Does that mean you agree that one of the problems facing companies in Michigan is the higher cost of labor?

If so, how would you suggest fixing the problem?

The only way I see is if the cost here is adjusted so it is not higher. I don't think doing it the other way around is gonna work... not like we can ask China, India etc. to please pay their workers more.

But maybe there's another way that I'm not seeing.


flatten the wage differnce with tarrifs to offset the lower cost of labor like they do in other countrys.

[Foolsgold80z]

Bingo!!! But it won't happen because most people are selfish pricks who only
care about the availability of cheap goods. Most are too stupid to even realize
that the quality of the shit they buy is horrible. Until people care about their
community and neighbors more than cheap garbage, this won't change.

[mikeg]

Seems like H. Ross Perot was right in '92, NAFTA would create a "giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the United States going to Mexico. Now that China is becoming an industrialized nation, if things don't change, we are fucked.

[Fryguy302]

Uluz2a6, you are SO damn short sighted. If business doesn't make money, nobody will make money.

And about the imported products being so horrible....I'm sorry, but that's not always true, unfortunately, even though I really wish it was. I buy American with everything I possibly can, and my first choice is to support the economy that feeds me, but sometimes it's just not possible. In some instances the price difference is so great, that a consumer can't even afford the american version.

The unions and the Union mentality is killing Michigan.

[Foolsgold80z]

Uluz2a6, you are SO damn short sighted. If business doesn't make money, nobody will make money.

And about the imported products being so horrible....I'm sorry, but that's not always true, unfortunately, even though I really wish it was. I buy American with everything I possibly can, and my first choice is to support the economy that feeds me, but sometimes it's just not possible. In some instances the price difference is so great, that a consumer can't even afford the american version.

The unions and the Union mentality is killing Michigan.

Some of what you're saying about quality is true, but much of the Chinese
stuff in particular is complete junk. Even clothing that wears out much quicker
due to cheap textiles, etc. I bought a set of drills once that were completely
unusable for ANYTHING. Some of them actually had a visible bow down the length, like a bent pushrod.

[Fryguy302]

Some of what you're saying about quality is true, but much of the Chinese
stuff in particular is complete junk. Even clothing that wears out much quicker
due to cheap textiles, etc. I bought a set of drills once that were completely
unusable for ANYTHING. Some of them actually had a visible bow down the length, like a bent pushrod.


I agree, there is complete junk out there, no doubt about it, but there are also $390 crankshafts that I've seen make 1400hp.

[uluz2a6]

Uluz2a6, you are SO damn short sighted. If business doesn't make money, nobody will make money.

Spoken like a True Bush Backer....

GREED: Those who have $$$ make the rules, right? Hypothetically: If Big Business decided they wanted to make a law that mandates everyone take a 1/2 pay cut tin order to keep their jobs, you'd have to work 2 JOBS in order to make the same pay. Now, do you want to take time off work to vote against the law? Of course not, your too busy working.:pow:



The unions and the Union mentality is killing Michigan.

NO... Corporate GREED is killing Michigan.

[mikeg]

Spoken like a True Bush Backer....

GREED: Those who have $$$ make the rules, right? Hypothetically: If Big Business decided they wanted to make a law that mandates everyone take a 1/2 pay cut tin order to keep their jobs, you'd have to work 2 JOBS in order to make the same pay. Now, do you want to take time off work to vote against the law? Of course not, your too busy working.:pow:





NO... Corporate GREED is killing Michigan.


Reality: If you make don't give concessions to big bussiness, they will move elsewhere, thus, taking their jobs with them. It will be hard for everyone to have 2 jobs when they are not available.

[uluz2a6]

Reality: If you make don't give concessions to big bussiness, they will move elsewhere, thus, taking their jobs with them. It will be hard for everyone to have 2 jobs when they are not available.

Just ready to bend over for the man huh? Maybe you believe in corportations over people, but I don't.

[mikeg]

Not corporations over people, just corporations need people and people need corporations. If it weren't for employers, there would be no employees, so the people in charge have to find ways to keep the jobs they have and attract new ones. Your way of thinking would have every major employer running south of the border.

[stalked_R/T]

Spoken like a True Bush Backer....

GREED: Those who have $$$ make the rules, right? Hypothetically: If Big Business decided they wanted to make a law that mandates everyone take a 1/2 pay cut tin order to keep their jobs, you'd have to work 2 JOBS in order to make the same pay. Now, do you want to take time off work to vote against the law? Of course not, your too busy working.:pow:





NO... Corporate GREED is killing Michigan.


Let me guess, you think the minimum wage should be increased

[wide winger]

The labor market is a changing, we need to change with it.

[QUASAR]

The state has been losing out to more business-friendly environs both overseas and in other states for decades..

So it was Englers fault? No wait, Clintons? And now its all Jennys fault? Or maybe Bush? No wait, its definitely the UAW.


I'm sure the demise of the US auto industry had nothing to do with soaring material costs, soaring oil costs, and losing market share to foreign automakers.

[wikdsvt]

HEY GUYS I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ARTICLE THAT I THINK MANY OF YOU SKIPPED OVER.


The word "DEMOCRAT" appears only once in that article and it is as an label for our governor. "Democrat Govenor Jennifer Ganholm"


I know Conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans. This article IS NOT about democrats v republicans, it is about a mind set a Liberal or Conservative mindset and it's effect on a particular economy.

[BAd Dad]

[QUOTE=QUASAR]So it was Englers fault? No wait, Clintons? And now its all Jennys fault? Or maybe Bush? No wait, its definitely the UAW.


I'm sure the demise of the US auto industry had nothing to do with soaring material costs, soaring oil costs, and losing market share to foreign automakers.[/QUOTE\Not to mention lame outdated designs and
lack of fuel efficiency.

[uluz2a6]

Not corporations over people, just corporations need people and people need corporations. If it weren't for employers, there would be no employees, so the people in charge have to find ways to keep the jobs they have and attract new ones. Your way of thinking would have every major employer running south of the border.

I agree... corporations need people... cheap cheap people.

Q: Where do you draw the line? Do you think it was right for Delphi to tell their workers to take a 1/2 pay cut or lose their job AT THE SAME (FUCKING) TIME giving themselves BONUSES?!:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
http://www.bartcop.com/bushonomics.jpg

[mikeg]

Although I can not agree with the performance bonuses for the white collor workers, it isn't as bad as you would make it sound, although still bad and I don't think the white collar workers have done anything to justify any type of performance bonus.


http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/11/news/companies/delphi_bonuses/index.htm

It has been demanding that unionized workers cut their pay by 19 percent immediately to $22 an hour from $27 they are now paid. It also is demanding pay be cut to $16.50 an hour in September 2007, when the current labor deal is set to expire, although it would offer a $50,000 payment to workers next fall to get them to accept that final pay cut.

[Foolsgold80z]

I agree... corporations need people... cheap cheap people.

Q: Where do you draw the line? Do you think it was right for Delphi to tell their workers to take a 1/2 pay cut or lose their job AT THE SAME (FUCKING) TIME giving themselves BONUSES?!:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
http://www.bartcop.com/bushonomics.jpg

Using Delphi as an example is a real double edged sword. The management
obviously has been fucked up for a long time and clearly don't deserve any
bonus ( or to continue in their duties if performance based ). But the truth is
the reason Delphi and Visteon were spun off is that the products they make
are mostly money losers that were bleeding the parent co's and now dragging
down the spin-offs. To suggest that they can continue paying the old pay
structure and stay in business is sophomoric at best. It isn't at all clear that
they can even survive under the new pay structure. I will repeat that I do
think the management at Delphi has been immoral and inept.

[wide winger]

[QUOTE=QUASAR]So it was Englers fault? No wait, Clintons? And now its all Jennys fault? Or maybe Bush? No wait, its definitely the UAW.


I'm sure the demise of the US auto industry had nothing to do with soaring material costs, soaring oil costs, and losing market share to foreign automakers.[/QUOTE\Not to mention lame outdated designs and
lack of fuel efficiency.

Let them make a mid-sized 4 clyinder diesel truck and car that gets +50 mpg, they would sell 100,000 unit a year.

[jpsartre12]

Lower taxes for business help the RICH. Do you think business shares it's saving with the workforce? HELL NO.
That's the kind of liberal mentality that got Michigan its PROUD 49th out of 50 rating. Fuck business and business will move out of state. It's that simple. And it's a fact that small businesses are where employment growth comes. So what does our Canadian governor do? Vetos the bill eliminating the small business tax.

People who have $$$$ make the rules.. Do you want Business (Republicans) to write the rules for the workforce? Or do you want the PEOPLE (Democrats) to write the laws?

I want businesses to be able to make money because when businesses make money, so do its employees. In Michigan, Democrats think of business as a great big cash cow for all of their social programs. Well, business is fed up with Michigan's liberalism and they're taking their businesses and heading to more business-friendly territory. And who can blame them?

[2low4u]

i'll blame that canadian hooker of a govener

[little2v]

NO... Corporate GREED is killing Michigan.

Dude, what rock are you smoking? Most people dont start a business for the sole purpose of helping society man... They start it to make money. Now it is possible to run a company with some ethics, although there is a little bit of ethics issues going on... which causes issues...

But it is a Egg before the Chicken sort of scenario.. The company has to look out for its interests before the people.. IE, maintain a level of profit, pay their bills, etc, so that those payroll checks can be cashed...

With the Unions and such, there is a given cost per employee that is higher than a non union employee... so sometimes things have to be outsourced to maintain profit..

The alternative is to simply give in to the unions and end up going out of business... whoops... look, now there are no jobs!

There is a huge imbalance between material costs and labor costs... and companies are doing the best job that they can to fight a very complicated battle...

[little2v]

Also... we have tons of unemployed people... part of the answer seems really simple to me..

Lots of people without jobs... you either need to reduce the number of people, or increase the number of jobs...

How do you increase the number of jobs? Give a company a reason to come to Michigan and hire people, etc..

Yes, we will give them tax breaks and such, but I would rather have a company come here and pay little to no tax and hire a bunch of people (which increases the state revenue via personal income tax btw)... now you have more employed people, which in turn spend money in the state since they are now making money... and the state as a whole does better...

[uluz2a6]

That's the kind of liberal mentality that got Michigan its PROUD 49th out of 50 rating. Fuck business and business will move out of state. It's that simple. And it's a fact that small businesses are where employment growth comes. So what does our Canadian governor do? Vetos the bill eliminating the small business tax.


I want businesses to be able to make money because when businesses make money, so do its employees. In Michigan, Democrats think of business as a great big cash cow for all of their social programs. Well, business is fed up with Michigan's liberalism and they're taking their businesses and heading to more business-friendly territory. And who can blame them?


Why do you continue to attack the working class?

Maybe insted of attacking the working man, you should attack this.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/11/news/companies/delphi_bonuses/index.htm

[Fryguy302]

Why do you continue to attack the working class?

Maybe insted of attacking the working man, you should attack this.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/11/news/companies/delphi_bonuses/index.htm


Is your problem the fact that you have so little ambition that you can never see yourself doing anything except taking what is given to you? Actually, even if that were true, surely you can understand that "the man" has to first HAVE something to give to you? I'm having a really hard time understanding how you are so incapable of understanding this very very simple fact. I could explain this to my four year old, and she would get it, but you never do.

[Fryguy302]

And BTW, I agree that the Delphi bonus for execs is rediculous and stupid. I just don't understand how that helps your point?

[uluz2a6]

Is your problem the fact that you have so little ambition that you can never see yourself doing anything except taking what is given to you?

Where did I ask for anything?


Actually, even if that were true, surely you can understand that "the man" has to first HAVE something to give to you?

Yeah... as little as legally possible.

I'm having a really hard time understanding

Well said!

[uluz2a6]

And BTW, I agree that the Delphi bonus for execs is rediculous and stupid. I just don't understand how that helps your point?

GREED: Those who have $$$ make the rules, right? Hypothetically: If Big Business decided they wanted to make a law that mandates everyone take a 1/2 pay cut tin order to keep their jobs, you'd have to work 2 JOBS in order to make the same pay. Now, do you want to take time off work to vote against the law? Of course not, your too busy working

It makes me-mad-as-hell to see Republicans/Conservatives/Bush Backers belly-ach about "welfare" but never mention CORPORATE WELFARE.

Do you want your 4-year old to make a decent living when she grows up or do you want big corporations making rules that favor them and limit her?

[Fryguy302]

Where did I ask for anything?




You're constantly asking for everything. More wages, more this, more that. When I want that I find a way to go fucking get it, instead of whine about someone giving it to me. If I can't get it, I must not be worth it, right?


Yeah... as little as legally possible.



OK, so "the man" should have as little as legally possible, but your dumb ass should have as much as legally possible? On what planet does that make sense? Why would "the man" even bother doing anything to give you losers as much as possible, if "the man" could only have as little as legally possible??




Well said!

Thanks!

[Fryguy302]

Do you want your 4-year old to make a decent living when she grows up or do you want big corporations making rules that favor them and limit her?


I'm pretty sure that my 4-year old will find a way to get what she wants. Your mentality is counter productive to long term success. I still can't believe you don't see that.

[uluz2a6]

You're constantly asking for everything. More wages, more this, more that. When I want that I find a way to go fucking get it, instead of whine about someone giving it to me. If I can't get it, I must not be worth it, right?

Asking for a fair wage/decent pay is not asking for much. Why don't you go on the attack when big business shuts a plant down to make themselves rich and thousands are without jobs? The more people like you stand on the sidelines as good paying jobs go overseas, the less and less chance your daughter has for a better future.

OK, so "the man" should have as little as legally possible, but your dumb ass should have as much as legally possible?

Once again... I cannot comprehend your blatent FAVORTISM for business over the working class? Do you think it's ok for some people who make Obscene amounts of $$$, to make the rules that favor them over the working class?

Let me ask you this... if your boss said "take a 1/2 pay cut" or lose your job, how would you feel? What about if job opportunites were few? What if you don't have the means to move or the money to get re-educated/trained?

[Fryguy302]

Asking for a fair wage/decent pay is not asking for much. Why don't you go on the attack when big business shuts a plant down to make themselves rich and thousands are without jobs? The more people like you stand on the sidelines as good paying jobs go overseas, the less and less chance your daughter has for a better future.



I don't like seeing good paying jobs go overseas either, but if the unions didn't force that to happen, it probably wouldn't. People like you (who are for some reason incapable of seeing the big picture) are the danger to our economy and future.


Once again... I cannot comprehend your blatent FAVORTISM for business over the working class? Do you think it's ok for some people who make Obscene amounts of $$$, to make the rules that favor them over the working class?


It is not "favortism", it is the way our system works, and it can work fine. Your idea of favoring the workers by forcing businesses to make "as little as legally possible" will only make sure that there is no business. How can you not see that?? There is always going to be rich and poor in a free market economy. The working class can choose to be either rich, poor, or in the middle. The world isn't always fair, most people learn this by the third grade. The alternative is to not have the opportunity to affect your own income. Personally, I like a system where anyone has the opportunity to get as much as they are capable of, or as much as they wish to. That's pretty much the way it works here.


Let me ask you this... if your boss said "take a 1/2 pay cut" or lose your job, how would you feel? What about if job opportunites were few? What if you don't have the means to move or the money to get re-educated/trained


I guess I wouldn't be too happy, so I'd have to find another job. If there were no other companies to go to for more money, I'd have to change my skill set to make myself worth more money. If I couldn't do that, I guess I'd have to be happy where I was or find another way to make money.

A house, a car, a baseball card, or a person (skill set) is only worth as much as someone will pay. That will never change. If you force a company to go broke to pay you, the company will close, and everyone will be left with nothing. Not 1/2, but NOTHING. I can't believe this has to be explained to you.

[Fryguy302]

I think the root of your problem may be that you really think of "the man" as one entity. It is not, it is MANY entities, which still have to compete with each other. That is the check and balance which can help keep things right.

[91trunk]

Raj it's like beating your head against a wall. He is hell bent on taking "the man" down when he doesn't even know what "the man" is.

[little2v]

Holy crap you are dumb man. You should be in jail for reproducing with your views.

[91trunk]

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
.

[Foolsgold80z]

That's the collectivist mindset at work.

[91trunk]

It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

:D

[jpsartre12]

Why do you continue to attack the working class?

Maybe insted of attacking the working man, you should attack this.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/11/news/companies/delphi_bonuses/index.htm

If you read the article, then you'd know why they are getting bonuses.


"There's never a good time when talking about incentive bonuses when you're restructuring," conceded Delphi spokeswoman Claudia Piccinin. Still she defended the pay proposals as justified by the current labor market, and by the fact that the company has not paid the performance bonuses since 2002.

"Our hourly work force is being paid above what competitors are paying. They've received increased compensation in recent years," said Delphi spokeswoman Claudia Piccinin. "By contrast our salaried work force is paid at or below our competitors. We've seen increased turnover of salaried staff since we filed for bankruptcy."


Nice try, though. You probably didn't expect anyone to actually read the link, I bet. :pow:

In layman's terms, they've been fucking their salaried employees for so long that many are jumping ship. Can you understand that or is it a conspiracy to keep unions under the thumb of cold-hearted businesses. :laugh:

[jpsartre12]

I agree... corporations need people... cheap cheap people.

Q: Where do you draw the line? Do you think it was right for Delphi to tell their workers to take a 1/2 pay cut or lose their job AT THE SAME (FUCKING) TIME giving themselves BONUSES?!:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

Management answers to the BOD who in turn answer to the stockholders. Dekphi can do whatever the fuck it wants to. Maybe you'd rather impose fascist policies that would put the government in charge of all industry. That way, Uncle Sam could pay everyone high wages and just run up the national debt further. :icon_eek:

[stalked_R/T]

Management answers to the BOD who in turn answer to the stockholders. Dekphi can do whatever the fuck it wants to. Maybe you'd rather impose fascist policies that would put the government in charge of all industry. That way, Uncle Sam could pay everyone high wages and just run up the national debt further. :icon_eek:


No reason to run up the debt, just make more money! It's easy. Turn on the printers and let them run till they break. Then we'll all be millionaires and can overpower those pesky corporate Scmucks! MWahahahah! What do you mean the price of bread is now $50 a loaf! It's all the corporate greed! Can't possibly have anything to do with the fact that we just raised everyones wages to extreme levels!


/hypothetical future conversation if what you say actually happened.

[mdhmi]

Michigan’s unionization rate of 21.8 percent is much higher than the national average of 13.5 percent.

How is that a government failure? BTW, the unionization rate was higher under Engler than Grandholm.

Do you think business shares it's saving with the workforce?

You obviously have never run a business. The more money you are permitted to keep the more money you have to reinvest in your business.

Do you want Business (Republicans) to write the rules for the workforce? Or do you want the PEOPLE (Democrats) to write the laws?

I want the people who pay the bills to make the laws. I think it's pretty shitty that people who don't even pay taxes have the right to vote for higher taxes for those of us who have the discipline and drive to go out and make a good income.

[91trunk]

How is that a government failure?

You obviously have never run a business. The more money you are permitted to keep the more money you have to reinvest in your business.



I want the people who pay the bills to make the laws. I think it's pretty shitty that people who don't even pay taxes have the right to vote for higher taxes for those of us who have the discipline and drive to go out and make a good income.


He thinks the business owners should share the profit since the employee's do all the work.

Hell why not. If I invested in a business I wouldn't want a return on my money. I want the employee's to have all the money. Oh wait then I would be running the RED CROSS!


X2 on your second point

[mdhmi]

He thinks the business owners should share the profit since the employee's do all the work.

Maybe he doesn't realize that he can share in those profits by investing in successful companies or by starting his own business.

I have a lot of respect for people who start their own businesses. It takes a lot of guts to go out there and work your butt off and get a business off the ground.

Tell someone who sacrificed for years to make his business successful that he owes you something just because he was successful. Geesshhh.

[mikeg]

It seems to me that what the Democrats want to do is to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, or take all the money and distribute it equally. What you end up with in this situation is a communist society. I have said it before, communism is an excellent form of government on paper, but in actual practice, there is absolutely no drive in the economy. The Soviet Union had an altered form or communism, but because there is no driving force, they used violence as a reason to do a hard job. Without a driving force no one would do the hard jobs, and most people would just half ass the rest of the jobs.

[mdhmi]

That would work if everyone contributed equally, but as we know that just isn't the case.

[jpsartre12]

It seems to me that what the Democrats want to do is to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, or take all the money and distribute it equally. What you end up with in this situation is a communist society. I have said it before, communism is an excellent form of government on paper, but in actual practice, there is absolutely no drive in the economy. The Soviet Union had an altered form or communism, but because there is no driving force, they used violence as a reason to do a hard job. Without a driving force no one would do the hard jobs, and most people would just half ass the rest of the jobs.

What amazes me the most is the fact that liberals who continuously slam the people that pay the bulk of the taxes think that there won't be any effect as a result.
It's like the group that goes to lunch together and sticks the guy with the most money with the tab. Sure it works once, maybe twice even, but eventually the guy with the money gets pissed at being taken advantage of and goes elsewhere for lunch. The same thing happens with businesses. Keep making them pay high taxes to support expensive liberal programs and they eventually move out of state. DOH!

[mdhmi]

Keep making them pay high taxes to support expensive liberal programs and they eventually move out of state. DOH!

Which is a nice segue to an overlooked issue: where do we cut? Education, roads, prisons, state parks, social services, what ?

This is a topic that DeVos -should- be discussing instead of 'I think schools should be teaching "Intelligent Design".. Yea, that's going to help our economy.

Has anyone else noticed that DeVos doesn't have a plan for Michigan?

When asked point blank what he will do to help the Michigan economy he didn't have anything to say. Just the usual platitudes like "we need to make Michigan a destination for businesses".. Well, -how- do you do that?

You do that by cutting taxes on businesses. Those businesses fund government. So it's only fair to tell us what areas of government will be cut.

[Foolsgold80z]

[QUOTE=mdhmi]Which is a nice segue to an overlooked issue: where do we cut? Education, roads, prisons, state parks, social services, what ?

I'd start with gov't pensions.

[jpsartre12]

Which is a nice segue to an overlooked issue: where do we cut? Education, roads, prisons, state parks, social services, what ?

This is a topic that DeVos -should- be discussing instead of 'I think schools should be teaching "Intelligent Design".. Yea, that's going to help our economy.

Has anyone else noticed that DeVos doesn't have a plan for Michigan?

No, I think you're the only one. The rest of us don't believe the Democratic Party's bullshit. BTW, here's his plan. It's been out for a while now. :pow: :pow: :pow: :pow:
http://www.devosforgovernor.com/Media/TurnAroundPlan/TheMichiganTurnAroundPlan.pdf

When asked point blank what he will do to help the Michigan economy he didn't have anything to say. Just the usual platitudes like "we need to make Michigan a destination for businesses".. Well, -how- do you do that?

You do that by cutting taxes on businesses. Those businesses fund government. So it's only fair to tell us what areas of government will be cut.
It took about 30 seconds to find the answer to your question.


We can move our public school teachers to the state workers healthcare plan or utilize other similar options.
While the teachers would receive the same health care coverage they receive now, we could save about $200
million. The savings is money that could go to the classroom to benefit our children.
We can set a four year time limit on welfare for able bodied
adults. This change could save Michigan over $40 million
each year. Michigan is one of only two of states that allow
able bodied adults to stay on welfare indefinitely. In fact,
Michigan has 9,294 people that stay on welfare for over
five years. In comparison, Ohio has just 149. Indiana
and Illinois have zero.
We can authorize the early retirement of state employees.
By allowing some employees who are ready to retire an
early out, we can reduce the size of government, reform
how we provide services and provide savings to taxpayers.
I will work tirelessly to identify and cut nonessential
spending. There will be no better budget
watchdog. The following are just a few ways that we can
save your hard-earned taxpayer dollars.
We can eliminate the office of the Governor’s spouse and its
budget. In tough economic times, there are far better ways
to spend taxpayer dollars.
The state of Michigan has 118 state commissions, boards, and task forces. Some of them can be eliminated
or consolidated to save money.
We should end Cool Cities grants. It is $4 million that could be better spent on more important programs.
We can stop giving state employees a paid day off on Election Day. The governor recently gave state employees election day off as another paid holiday. This costs taxpayer dollars and reduces the level of service
state government provides to Michigan families.
Some of these savings are small. But to paraphrase a quote attributed to a United States Senator years ago, “A million here, a few hundred thousand there, pretty soon it’s real money.” Bottom-line, state government owes it to the taxpaying families of Michigan to maximize every dollar that is sent to it. We can cut more out of state government. As governor, I will make sure that the job gets done.
Page 45. http://www.devosforgovernor.com/Media/TurnAroundPlan/TheMichiganTurnAroundPlan.pdf

[jpsartre12]

[QUOTE=mdhmi]Which is a nice segue to an overlooked issue: where do we cut? Education, roads, prisons, state parks, social services, what ?

I'd start with gov't pensions.

Let's save some money by sending Granholm back to Canada. :laugh:

[mdhmi]

I'd like to know how they propose getting teachers to agree to reduced benefits. Those are all union folks and each district is run separately.

I definitely agree that government pensions should be eliminated. I wish that would come up for a vote.

Makes you wonder why with a Republican lead house and senate in Michigan we have unlimited welfare and 118 state commissions, boards, and task forces.

[mdhmi]

I just took a look at Devos's web site. His site isn't even hosted in Michigan. Probably wasn't developed here either. What an asshole.

[jpsartre12]

I'd like to know how they propose getting teachers to agree to reduced benefits. Those are all union folks and each district is run separately.

I definitely agree that government pensions should be eliminated. I wish that would come up for a vote.

Makes you wonder why with a Republican lead house and senate in Michigan we have unlimited welfare and 118 state commissions, boards, and task forces.

It's tough to get rid of decades of bad Democratic control? :icon_mrgr

[jpsartre12]

I just took a look at Devos's web site. His site isn't even hosted in Michigan. Probably wasn't developed here either. What an asshole.

Getting a little petty, don't you think? :wink:

[mdhmi]

It's not petty at all. It's a microcosm of how he does business. Personally I try to spend my money in Michigan, even when sales tax ends up costing me more than just buying something online because I believe in supporting Michigan businesses. It would be nice if he felt the same way.

[mikeg]

It's not petty at all. It's a microcosm of how he does business. Personally I try to spend my money in Michigan, even when sales tax ends up costing me more than just buying something online because I believe in supporting Michigan businesses. It would be nice if he felt the same way.

I too support Michigan bussinesses whenever I can, but I don't believe that having someone out of state host a website for you is equal to screwing over bussinesses with the small bussiness tax. Granholm has shown me nothing but a lot of flapping lips. I know the government (both sides) is always going to look out for it's self first, but at least they can make an attempt to do something instead of make empty promises.

[mdhmi]

Granholm has shown me nothing but a lot of flapping lips.

I'm definitely in agreement with you there.

I think my great disappointment is that out of 10 million people in Michigan we get a Canadian liberal and a wimp who inherited a company to pick from. Is this really the best we can do?

[jpsartre12]

I'm definitely in agreement with you there.

I think my great disappointment is that out of 10 million people in Michigan we get a Canadian liberal and a wimp who inherited a company to pick from. Is this really the best we can do?

Considering that John Engler came from the right party and Granholm from the dark side, I'd say that it's YOUR party that needs to improve the quality of candidates. That includes: The liberal Levin brothers, Debbie StabitNOW, John "where's my babysitter" Conyers and a host of others. :icon_mrgr

Michigan Democrats are an embarrassment. Remember David Bonior, the House Minority Pitbull? He bribed his constituents to vote for him by passing out saplings. :laugh:

[91Notch]

[QUOTE=mls48341]

Let's save some money by sending Granholm back to Canada. :laugh:

:badass:

[DBK]

Article = True.

Granholm = a horrid failure.

Only a fool would fail to see the correlation between the rapid decline of Michigan's economic prosperity and it's horrid taxes, it's shit governor, and it's union dominated manufacturing base.

But IRAQ!!! :laugh:

Granholm is so bad I'm going to vote for someone who has something to do with Amway. That should tell you something. Hell, I'd vote for a german shephard, or maybe if Drew and Mike ran as a combo.

Point is you have to get serious and cut. And cut hard. You pay the piper one way or the other, and you can do so in an environment that fosters prosperity or one that adds more and more pieces of gum to the holes in the sinking ship.

I've got an idea, give me the books, I'll be governor for a week, and you give me 1% of what I can cut that makes no difference to the masses. We do one thing good here, and that's waste money...

[mikeg]

You know what I want to hear about is the independant parties because the major parties haven't done shit since President Kennedy. I really want to look into what the independants stand for.

[Golden]

How have I missed this thread all together? Good read.

[Ortontucky Terror]

HEY GUYS I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ARTICLE THAT I THINK MANY OF YOU SKIPPED OVER.


The word "DEMOCRAT" appears only once in that article and it is as an label for our governor. "Democrat Govenor Jennifer Ganholm"


I know Conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans. This article IS NOT about democrats v republicans, it is about a mind set a Liberal or Conservative mindset and it's effect on a particular economy.

:iamwithst

[mdhmi]

I really want to look into what the independents stand for.

There are probably some decent alternatives, however, the problem is almost none of them can be taken seriously. They don't have a hope in hell of leading in the general.

Perhaps a moderate will infiltrate either party and get some real work done.

[mikeg]

If enough people get fed up with the old boys network, it can change.

[silver95taurus]

some of the stuff on there is good. other stuff isnt.