FINALLY!! Someone said it!

[uluz2a6]

http://thatvideosite.com/video/3312

:ty:

http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/images/tn-mayday.jpg[

[Quick86]

pwned.

[bigblockford]

Tim Ryan for president

[wide winger]

Um........he really needs to lay off the drugs.

[wide winger]

Gas is at 2.03 a gallon.
The libs whant to keep people poor by
sending them to schools that dont teach
and is ran by libs.
The unemploment is at 4%, lowest in history.
Health care is not a god given right, we should not
have to pay for everyones health care.
If you want to pay more taxes that is fine
with me , but I pay too flipping much in taxes
as it is.

[Quick86]

Gas is at 2.03 a gallon.
The libs whant to keep people poor by
sending them to schools that dont teach
and is ran by libs.
The unemploment is at 4%, lowest in history.
Health care is not a god given right, we should not
have to pay for everyones health care.
If you want to pay more taxes that is fine
with me , but I pay too flipping much in taxes
as it is.


4.7% to be exact. The lowest unemployment rate in history was 4.2%....

My source? The Census, Current Population Survey.... Where all unemployment statistics are gathered :)

Michigans unemployment rate? 7.1%......

[wide winger]

And that (less than 5%) is not bad at all.

[Quick86]

And that (less than 5%) is not bad at all.


What state are you from?


:) :laugh: :laugh:


I'm not saying that Granholm is doing a good job, but the republican controlled federal government does have a hand in jobs in our state.... And if you're living in Michigan, you really ought to be concerned.

[wide winger]

Indiana

[2low4u]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=252HcnWhc9A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmkIVykEv_o

[wide winger]

I wonder if she knew that a women was not allowed to
attend school in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew women where sold and traded
like cattle in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew whole towns that Sadamn hated
did not have electricty before we took over?


Typical!

[wide winger]

What state are you from?


:) :laugh: :laugh:


I'm not saying that Granholm is doing a good job, but the republican controlled federal government does have a hand in jobs in our state.... And if you're living in Michigan, you really ought to be concerned.

What is the state sales tax rate in Michigan?

[uluz2a6]

I wonder if she knew that a women was not allowed to
attend school in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew women where sold and traded
like cattle in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew whole towns that Sadamn hated
did not have electricty before we took over?


Typical!

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:

[wide winger]

Sometimes the truth is a bitter pill.

[uluz2a6]

Sometimes the truth is a bitter pill.

Yup! Time for you to take yours... Back up your statment.

Show me where Saddam forbid women to go to school. Women were traded like cattle in Iraq. I'll be waiting...:laugh:

[wide winger]

Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004
Causes of Low Enrolment



n 26% of girls in rural areas reported that they did not attend school because their families did not want them to.

n 24% of girls in the rural areas said that there were no nearby schools.

n 36% of the respondents said that they did not have an interest in attending school, of which 16% said that they did not attend because they were poor, and 14% said that there were no nearby schools.

31% of people in the Northern Region above 15 have never attended school. 6% only have attended or completed higher education.
Overall Enrolment



The overall enrolment, applicable to all ages between 6 and 24, shows the proportion of people enrolled in school, independent of which level or grade they are enrolled in.



n 55% of people in age group 6-24 are enrolled in school.

n Only 59% of all six-year-olds are enrolled.

n From the age of 12, there is a steady decline in school enrolment, reaching 56% at the age of 15 and 35% at the age of 18.

[uluz2a6]

Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004
Causes of Low Enrolment

26% of girls in rural areas reported that they did not attend school because their families did not want them to. 24% of girls in the rural areas said that there were no nearby schools. 36% of the respondents said that they did not have an interest in attending school, of which 16% said that they did not attend because they were poor, and 14% said that there were no nearby schools.31% of people in the Northern Region above 15 have never attended school. 6% only have attended or completed higher education.

Hmmm that does not seem to match your statment.

I wonder if she knew that a women was not allowed to
attend school in Iraq before we took over.


Still waiting on your other "Facts":dance:

[wide winger]

Cousin Marriage Conundrum

Many prominent neoconservatives are calling on America not only to conquer Iraq (and perhaps more Muslim nations after that), but also to rebuild Iraqi society in order to jumpstart the democratization of the Middle East. Yet, Americans know so little about the Middle East that few of us are even aware of one of one of the building blocks of Arab Muslim cultures -- cousin marriage. Not surprisingly, we are almost utterly innocent of any understanding of how much the high degree of inbreeding in Iraq could interfere with our nation building ambitions.

In Iraq, as in much of the region, nearly half of all married couples are first or second cousins to each other. A 1986 study of 4,500 married hospital patients and staff in Baghdad found that 46% were wed to a first or second cousin, while a smaller 1989 survey found 53% were "consanguineously" married. The most prominent example of an Iraqi first cousin marriage is that of Saddam Hussein and his first wife Sajida.

By fostering intense family loyalties and strong nepotistic urges, inbreeding makes the development of civil society more difficult. Many Americans have heard by now that Iraq is composed of three ethnic groups -- the Kurds of the north, the Sunnis of the center, and the Shi'ites of the south. Clearly, these ethnic rivalries would complicate the task of ruling reforming Iraq. But that's just a top-down summary of Iraq's ethnic make-up. Each of those three ethnic groups is divisible into smaller and smaller tribes, clans, and inbred extended families -- each with their own alliances, rivals, and feuds. And the engine at the bottom of these bedeviling social divisions is the oft-ignored institution of cousin marriage.

The clannishness, corruption, and coups frequently observed in countries such as Iraq appears to be in tied to the high rates of inbreeding.

Commentator Randall Parker wrote, "Consanguinity [cousin marriage] is the biggest underappreciated factor in Western analyses of Middle Eastern politics. Most Western political theorists seem blind to the importance of pre-ideological kinship-based political bonds in large part because those bonds are not derived from abstract Western ideological models of how societies and political systems should be organized. ? Extended families that are incredibly tightly bound are really the enemy of civil society because the alliances of family override any consideration of fairness to people in the larger society. Yet, this obvious fact is missing from 99% of the discussions about what is wrong with the Middle East. How can we transform Iraq into a modern liberal democracy if every government worker sees a government job as a route to helping out his clan at the expense of other clans?"

European nations have recently become increasingly hostile toward the common practice among their Muslim immigrants of arranging marriages between their children and citizens of their home country, frequently their relatives. One study of Turkish guest-workers in the Danish city of Ish?und that 98% -- 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation -- married a spouse from Turkey who then came and lived in Denmark. (Turks, however, are quite a bit less enthusiastic about cousin marriage than are Arabs or Pakistanis, which correlates with the much stronger degree of patriotism found in Turkey.)

If a European-born daughter refused to marry her cousin from the old country just because she doesn't love him, that would deprive her extended family of the boon of an immigration visa. So, intense family pressure can fall on the daughter to do as she is told.

Unlike the Middle East, Europe underwent what Samuel P. Huntington calls the "Romeo and Juliet revolution." Europeans became increasingly sympathetic toward the right of a young woman to marry the man she loves. Setting the stage for this was the Catholic Church's long war against cousin marriage, even out to fourth cousins or higher. This weakened the extended family in Europe, thus lessening the advantages of arranged marriages. It also strengthened broader institutions like the Church and the nation-state.

Islam itself may not be responsible for the high rates of inbreeding in Muslim countries. (Similarly high levels of consanguinity are found among Hindus in Southern India, although there, uncle-niece marriages are socially preferred, even though their degree of genetic similarity is twice that of cousin marriages, with worse health consequences for offspring.)

Rafat Hussain, a Pakistani-born Senior Lecturer at the U. of New England in Australia, told me, "Islam does not specifically encourage cousin marriages and, in fact, in the early days of the spread of Islam, marriages outside the clan were highly desirable to increase cultural and religious influence." She adds, "The practice has little do with Islam (or in fact any religion) and has been a prevalent cultural norm before Islam." Inbreeding (or "endogamy") is also common among Christians in the Middle East, although less so than among Muslims.

Just as the inbred have fewer unique ancestors than the outbred, they also have fewer unique heirs, helping keep both the inheritance and the brothers together. When a herd-owning patriarch marries his son off to his younger brother's daughter, he insures that his grandson and his grandnephew will be the same person. Likewise, the younger brother benefits from knowing that his grandson will also be the patriarch's grandson and heir. Thus, by making sibling rivalry over inheritance less relevant, cousin marriage emotionally unites families.

The anthropologist Carleton Coon also pointed out that by minimizing the number of relatives a Bedouin Arab nomad has, this system of inbreeding "does not overextend the number of persons whose deaths an honorable man must avenge."

Are Muslims, especially Arabs, so much more loyal to their families than to their nations because, due to countless generations of cousin marriages, they are so much more genealogically related to their families than Westerners are related to theirs? Frank Salter, a political scientist at the Max Planck Institute in Germany whose new book "Risky Transactions: Trust, Kinship, and Ethnicity" takes a sociobiological look at the reason why Mafia families are indeed families, told me, "That's my hunch; at least it's bound to be a factor."

One of the basic laws of modern evolutionary science, quantified by the great Oxford biologist William D. Hamilton in 1964 under the name "kin selection," is that the more close the genetic relationship between two people, the more likely they are to feel loyalty and altruism toward each other. Natural selection has molded us not just to try to propagate our own genes, but to help our relatives, who possess copies of some of our specific genes, to propagate their own.

Nepotism is thus biologically inspired. Hamilton explained that the level of nepotistic feeling generally depends upon degree of genetic similarity. You share half your personally variable genes with your children and siblings, but one quarter with your nephews/nieces and grandchildren, so your nepotistic urges will tend to be somewhat less toward them. You share one eighth of your genes with your first cousins, and one thirty-second with your second cousin, so your feelings of family loyalty tend to fall off quickly.

But not as quickly if you and your relatives are inbred. Then, you'll be genealogically and related to your kin via multiple pathways. You will all be genetically more similar, so your normal family feelings will be multiplied. For example, your son-in-law might be also be the nephew you've cherished since his childhood, so you can lavish all the nepotistic altruism on him that in an outbred family would be split between your son-in-law and your nephew.

Unfortunately, nepotism is usually a zero sum game, so the flip side of being materially nicer toward your relatives would be that you'd have less resources left with which to be civil, or even just fair, toward non-kin. So, nepotistic corruption is rampant in countries such as Iraq, where Saddam has appointed members of his extended family from his hometown of Tikrit to many key positions in the national government.

Similarly, a tendency toward inbreeding can turn an extended family into a miniature racial group with its own partially isolated gene pool. (Dog breeders use extreme forms of inbreeding to quickly create new breeds in a handful of generations.) The ancient Hebrews provide a vivid example of a partly inbred extended family (that of Abraham and his brothers) that evolved into its own ethnic group. This process has been going on for thousands of years in the Middle East, which is why not just the Jews, but also why tiny, ancient inbreeding groups such as the Samaritans, the John the Baptist-worshipping Sabeans, and the Lucifer-worshipping Yezidis still survive.

In summary, although neoconservatives constantly point to America's success at reforming Germany and Japan after World War II has evidence that it would be easy to do the same in the Middle East, the deep social structure of Iraq is the complete opposite of those two true nation-states, with their highly patriotic, cooperative, and (not surprisingly) outbred peoples. The Iraqis, in contrast, more closely resemble the Hatfields and the McCoys.

[2low4u]

Hmmm that does not seem to match your statment.



Still waiting on your other "Facts":dance:


:badass: wide winger is gonna own u

[uluz2a6]

If a European-born daughter refused to marry her cousin from the old country just because she doesn't love him, that would deprive her extended family of the boon of an immigration visa. So, intense family pressure can fall on the daughter to do as she is told.


Hmmm... that too DOES NOT match your statment either...:dontknow:

I wonder if she knew women where sold and traded
like cattle in Iraq before we took over.


Do you want to bow out now or keep going?:pow:

[WhiteHawk]

Just for the record, you can't compare unemplyment statistics from before and after the Reagan administration. When people were getting layed off during the 80's recession, they decided to change how they measure unemployment. They added in the military, which they said was volunteer, and the stopped counting people once they went off unemployment. There were a few more tricks they did, but I can't recall them all.

So if you compare modern unemployment to stuff from the 70's and 60's, you have to add 3 or 4 % to the modern stuff to make it apples to apples. (I have the exact number somewhere if anyone is interested).

-Geoff

[wide winger]

ALEMIYA, Iraq, Sept.27 - Iqbal Muhammad does not recall her first glimpse of her future husband, because they were both newborns at the time, but she remembers precisely when she knew he was the one. It was the afternoon her uncle walked over from his house next door and proposed that she marry his son Muhammad.

"I was a little surprised, but I knew right away it was a wise choice," she said, recalling that afternoon nine years ago, when she and Muhammad were both 22. "It is safer to marry a cousin than a stranger!”

Her reaction was typical in a country where nearly half of marriages are between first or second cousins, a statistic that is one of the more important and least understood differences between Iraq and America. The extraordinarily strong family bonds complicate virtually everything Americans are trying to do here, from finding Saddam Hussein to changing women's status to creating a liberal democracy.

"Americans just don't understand what a different world Iraq is because of these highly unusual cousin marriages,” said Robin Fox of Rutgers University, the author of "Kinship and Marriage," a widely used anthropology textbook. "Liberal democracy is based on the Western idea of autonomous individuals committed to a public good, but that's not how members of these tight and bounded kin groups see the world. Their world is divided into two groups: kin and strangers."

Iraqis frequently describe nepotism not as a civic problem but as a moral duty. The notion that Iraq's next leader would put public service ahead of family obligations drew a smile from Iqbal's uncle and father-in-law, Sheik Yousif Sayel, the patriarch in charge of the clan's farm on the Tigris River south of Baghdad.

"In this country, whoever is in power will bring his relatives in from the village and give them important positions," Sheik Yousif said, sitting in the garden surrounded by some of his 21 children and 83 grandchildren. "That is what Saddam did, and now those relatives are fulfilling their obligation to protect him from the Americans."

Saddam Hussein married a first cousin who grew up in the same house as he did, and he ordered most of his children to marry their cousins. Sheik Yousif said he never forced any of his children to marry anyone, but more than half of the ones to marry have wed cousins. The patriarch was often the one who first suggested the match, as he did with his son Muhammad nine years ago.

"My father said that I was old enough to get married, and I agreed," Muhammad recalled. "He and my mother recommended Iqbal. I respected their wishes. It was my desire, too. We knew each other. It was much simpler to marry within the family."

A month later, after the wedding, Iqbal moved next door to the home of Sheik Yousif. Moving in with the in-laws might be an American bride's nightmare, but Iqbal said her toughest adjustment occurred five years later, when Sheik Yousif decided that she and Muhammad were ready to live by themselves in a new home he provided just behind his own.

"I felt a little lonely at first when we moved into the house by ourselves," Iqbal said. Muhammad said he, too, felt lonely in the new house, and he expressed pity for American parents and children living thousands of miles from each other.

"Families are supposed to be together," he said. "It is cruel to keep children and parents apart."

Sheik Yousif, who is 82, said he could not imagine bow the elderly in America coped in their homes alone. "I could not bear to go a week without seeing my children," he said. Some of his daughters have married outsiders and moved into other patriarchal clans, but the rest of the children are never far away.

Muhammad and three other sons live on the farm with him, helping to supervise the harvesting of barley, wheat and oranges, and the dates from the palm trees on their land. The other six sons have moved 15 miles away to Baghdad, but they come back often for meals and in hard times. During the war in the spring, almost the whole clan took refuge at the farm, returning to the only institution they had been able to trust through the worst of Mr. Hussein's rule.

Next to the family, the sons' social priority is the tribe, Sadah, which has several thousand members in the area and is led by Sheik Yousif. He and his children see their neighbors when praying at Sunni mosques, but none of them belong to the kind of civic groups or professional associations that are so common in America, the pillars of civil society that observers since de Tocqueville have been crediting for the promotion of democracy.

"I told my children not to participate in any outside groups or clubs," Sheik Yousif said. "We don't want distractions. We have a dynasty to preserve." To demonstrate his point, he ordered his sons to unroll the family tree. It was on a scroll 70 feet long, with lots of cousins intertwined in the branches.

Cousin marriage was once the norm throughout the world, but it became taboo in Europe after a long campaign by the Roman Catholic Church. Theologians like St. Augustine and St. Thomas argued that the practice promoted family loyalties at the expense of universal love and social harmony. Eliminating it was seen as a way to reduce clan warfare and promote loyalty to larger social institutions like the church.

The practice became rare in the West, especially after evidence emerged of genetic risks to offspring, but it has persisted in some places, notably the Middle East, which is exceptional because of both the high prevalence and the restrictive form it takes.

In other societies, a woman typically weds a cousin outside her social group, like a maternal cousin living in a clan led by a different patriarch. But in Iraq the ideal is for the woman to remain within the clan by marrying the son of her father's brother, as Iqbal did.

[wide winger]

Saddam treats his women population like dogs.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140012005

[MotorCityNova572]

http://www.motownmuscle.com/shared/fuckyou.gif

HEY uluz2a6...

[mikeg]

Tim Ryan sucks, all he does is run his mouth, just like all of the other Democrats. Come up with a solution, don't just bitch, piss and moan about everything.

[uluz2a6]

...ther societies, a woman typically weds a cousin outside her social group, like a maternal cousin living in a clan led by a different patriarch. But in Iraq the ideal is for the woman to remain within the clan by marrying the son of her father's brother, as Iqbal did.

Yeah... your right.. Women bought and sold like cattle... :Yawn: That copy and paste said it all.:jagoff:

[uluz2a6]

Tim Ryan sucks, all he does is run his mouth, just like all of the other Democrats. Come up with a solution, don't just bitch, piss and moan about everything.

At least someone had the balls to speak what over 1/2 the country thinks. Talk about the problem is the first step toward change.

[mikeg]

At least someone had the balls to speak what over 1/2 the country thinks. Talk about the problem is the first step toward change.

Yes, talking is the first step, but go ahead and take another step. I am not a Democrat, and I don't support most of what they say, and on the other hand I am not a Republican and I don't support most of what they do, but if you put a solution on the table that makes sense, then I am going to agree with you, Democrat, Republican, or Independant.

[Ortontucky Terror]

Gas is at 2.03 a gallon.
The libs whant to keep people poor by
sending them to schools that dont teach
and is ran by libs.
The unemploment is at 4%, lowest in history.
Health care is not a god given right, we should not
have to pay for everyones health care.
If you want to pay more taxes that is fine
with me , but I pay too flipping much in taxes
as it is.

dont change the subject this isnt about all that shit you listed, its about what a huge fucking waste of money iraq is.

I wonder if she knew that a women was not allowed to
attend school in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew women where sold and traded
like cattle in Iraq before we took over.

I wonder if she knew whole towns that Sadamn hated
did not have electricty before we took over?

Typical!

well power still sucks there are still hole towns that dont have power, and power is sporadic even in cities, women can still be bought like animals, bull shit they could go to school before we were there.

What is the state sales tax rate in Michigan?

again dont change the subject, wtf does sales tax have to do with anything on this topic. dont argue for the sake of arguing with a lib.

At least someone had the balls to speak what over 1/2 the country thinks. Talk about the problem is the first step toward change.

what he said is true, all of it. the more it gets talked about the more attention it will get, obvisouly if you were the bush administration and iraq is going as bad as it is, i wouldnt want to tlak about it either. you cant fathom the money being straight wasted in iraq.

feel free to refrence some of my old posts on the iraq subject
http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31261
http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32447
http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32217

[Quick86]

All Winger is doing is what the white house does anytime someone attempts to hold their feet to the fire - dance around and try to distract you with other unimportant bullshit :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH3Wjc9Gn6E

[Ortontucky Terror]

yellow cake and aluminum tubes!!!!!!!!! i got this yellow cake wrapped up in a CIA napkin.lololol

[Quick86]

yellow cake and aluminum tubes!!!!!!!!! i got this yellow cake wrapped up in a CIA napkin.lololol


It's even better and longer than that... Theres a part where he gets asked about the war and tells em: "Why you in the media always tryin to distract me from the big issues. Always askin me about the war and the economy. Don't worry about that shit, I got that shit covered! Theres bigger things going on in this country........... Folks, gay people want to get married!"

[Ortontucky Terror]

ya i got both seasons on dvd, do they sell the missing episodes yet?

[Quick86]

ya i got both seasons on dvd, do they sell the missing episodes yet?


I think I saw em for rent at Blockbuster, so I am assuming so... :dontknow:

[wide winger]

For years we have givin billions to people that dont want to
work, billions to a education system that is (for the most part) inept.
Where is the left on these matters, they dont want to lose votes thats where they are.
Young men walking around with their butts hanging out of there pants and sporting an negitive attitude ABOUT HOW ITS WHITE TO DO A HONEST DAYS WORK, we are turning a blind eye to our own youth.
Where is the outrage, where?

If anybody does call up this injustice he is labled a racist, bigot or worse.
These kids will be lost forever (again) if we dont educate them in a proper way.
This is the land of opportunity, anyone can make it here if they work hard and keep thier nose clean.

PS- I dont want my daughters herded over to my brothers house and MADE TO marry his sons.

[uluz2a6]

For years we have givin billions to people that dont want to
work, billions to a education system that is (for the most part) inept.
Where is the left on these matters, they dont want to lose votes thats where they are.
Young men walking around with their butts hanging out of there pants and sporting an negitive attitude ABOUT HOW ITS WHITE TO DO A HONEST DAYS WORK, we are turning a blind eye to our own youth.
Where is the outrage, where?

If anybody does call up this injustice he is labled a racist, bigot or worse.
These kids will be lost forever (again) if we dont educate them in a proper way.
This is the land of opportunity, anyone can make it here if they work hard and keep thier nose clean.

PS- I dont want my daughters herded over to my brothers house and MADE TO marry his sons.

:Yawn:

[CableGuy]

http://www.motownmuscle.com/shared/fuckyou.gif

HEY uluz2a6...

Hey, your an idiot, grow up.:pow:


Gas is at 2.03 a gallon.
The libs whant to keep people poor by
sending them to schools that dont teach
and is ran by libs.
The unemploment is at 4%, lowest in history.
Health care is not a god given right, we should not
have to pay for everyones health care.
If you want to pay more taxes that is fine
with me , but I pay too flipping much in taxes
as it is.


Keep talking about anything else but..... just like he said.

[Quick86]

For years we have givin billions to people that dont want to
work, billions to a education system that is (for the most part) inept.
Where is the left on these matters, they dont want to lose votes thats where they are.
Young men walking around with their butts hanging out of there pants and sporting an negitive attitude ABOUT HOW ITS WHITE TO DO A HONEST DAYS WORK, we are turning a blind eye to our own youth.
Where is the outrage, where?

If anybody does call up this injustice he is labled a racist, bigot or worse.
These kids will be lost forever (again) if we dont educate them in a proper way.
This is the land of opportunity, anyone can make it here if they work hard and keep thier nose clean.

PS- I dont want my daughters herded over to my brothers house and MADE TO marry his sons.



I believe the same thing was said about children of the 70s... children of the 80s... children of the 90s... And children of the 00's... :dontknow:

[wide winger]

Electricity supply improvement:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. USAID has added over 1292 MW of new or rehabilitated capacity to the electrical grid.

Enjoy!

[uluz2a6]

Electricity supply improvement:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. USAID has added over 1292 MW of new or rehabilitated capacity to the electrical grid.

Enjoy!


Great! Was it worth 2700+ DEAD AMERICAN YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN so foreigners can have electricity?:pow:

[cASe SenSiTive]

Great! Was it worth 2700+ DEAD AMERICAN YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN so foreigners can have electricity?:pow:

Don't forget the thousands of dead Iraqis too(although we both know that dead brown people don't matter to Republicans;)).
I'm sure the survivors are very happy that Saddam is no longer in power. Now they can have electricity for several hours a day in some cases, and only have to deal with a civil war in the streets.
Sounds much better than before to me.:dontknow:

[cASe SenSiTive]

Electricity supply improvement:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. USAID has added over 1292 MW of new or rehabilitated capacity to the electrical grid.

Enjoy!


I'm glad you're so happy about the U.S. spending billions on repairing Iraq's electrical grid. I guess that means we won't have any money to fix our own though, eh?:dontknow:

[cASe SenSiTive]

PS- I dont want my daughters herded over to my brothers house and MADE TO marry his sons.


The whole "forced marriage" argument of yours is ridiculous. It's not like the middle east is the only place in the world where arranged marriages are commonplace.

And if you're really pissed off about the way women are treated in other countries, then try taking a look at our "allies" like Saudi Arabia. Iraq under Saddam was actually quite liberal and secular. Especially compared to most other middle eastern nations.

[uluz2a6]

CASE FOR PRESIDENT!!!
:badass: :badass: :badass:

[Foolsgold80z]

You guys are all barking up the wrong tree on this one. Iraq is all about a
strategic jumping off point for further "adventures".

[uluz2a6]

You guys are all barking up the wrong tree on this one. Iraq is all about a
strategic jumping off point for further "adventures".


Yeah.. I'm sure with our "success" in IRAQ, Americans & "Allies" are chomping at the bit to go on another "adventure".

[Foolsgold80z]

Yeah.. I'm sure with our "success" in IRAQ, Americans & "Allies" are chomping at the bit to go on another "adventure".

More to come, mark my words.

By the way, what the fuck is that avatar?

[uluz2a6]

More to come, mark my words.

Probably.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/2330/4284/50363.jpg

By the way, what the fuck is that avatar?

I think it's a turbo running a little hot.:wink:

[wide winger]

If you where a drug dealer and the police called you and said we a raiding your house in 30 days, would you not hide the drugs somewhere else?
WMD's are in other country's other that Iraq, that support these thugs.

[wide winger]

Great! Was it worth 2700+ DEAD AMERICAN YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN so foreigners can have electricity?:pow:

How many babies do we kill so american girls can have lots and lots of sex?
More that 2700 I do think!

[91Notch]

How many babies do we kill so american girls can have lots and lots of sex?
More that 2700 I do think!

and a very high percentage of those that are killed are minorities

[cASe SenSiTive]

How many babies do we kill so american girls can have lots and lots of sex?
More that 2700 I do think!



Oooooohhh... Good job little neo-con. Now you just have to bring up the gays and you'll have hit all of the "important" issues. :rolleyes:


How about you stick to the argument at hand? I know it might be a little difficult since you don't have any real point to make, but at least put in the effort.

[cASe SenSiTive]

If you where a drug dealer and the police called you and said we a raiding your house in 30 days, would you not hide the drugs somewhere else?
WMD's are in other country's other that Iraq, that support these thugs.


So where did they go? Did our govenment let Iraq sneek them out right under our noses?

And really, if there are al of these WMDs in possesion of guys that hate us, why haven't they used even ONE against us? It'd be like me punching you in the face repeatedly while you just left your gun in your pocket so I wouldn't know you had it.:dontknow:

[wide winger]

So where did they go? Did our govenment let Iraq sneek them out right under our noses?

And really, if there are al of these WMDs in possesion of guys that hate us, why haven't they used even ONE against us? It'd be like me punching you in the face repeatedly while you just left your gun in your pocket so I wouldn't know you had it.:dontknow:

You really dont have any clue about how saddam ran that country.
He used gas to kill thousands of curds amd wipes out whloe famlies that said a word against him.

[wide winger]

Oooooohhh... Good job little neo-con. Now you just have to bring up the gays and you'll have hit all of the "important" issues. :rolleyes:


How about you stick to the argument at hand? I know it might be a little difficult since you don't have any real point to make, but at least put in the effort.

I say smoke pot not cock!

Happy Now!

[uluz2a6]

If you where a drug dealer and the police called you and said we a raiding your house in 30 days, would you not hide the drugs somewhere else?
WMD's are in other country's other that Iraq, that support these thugs.


BAAAAAAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! LMAO!!! You STILL believe IRAQ has WMD'S?!! LOL!

[cASe SenSiTive]

You really dont have any clue about how saddam ran that country.
He used gas to kill thousands of curds amd wipes out whloe famlies that said a word against him.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1779.htm

[cASe SenSiTive]

You really dont have any clue about how saddam ran that country.
He used gas to kill thousands of curds amd wipes out whloe famlies that said a word against him.


I'll ask again. Where did the WMDs go, and why hasn't even ONE terrorist group deployed them yet?

[wide winger]

I'll ask again. Where did the WMDs go, and why hasn't even ONE terrorist group deployed them yet?

That really is the five dollar question?
And many wish they had the answer.
It could be they are afraid to deploy them
cause its hard to control the toxic gas once its released and world opinion
if they do use it.
Its hard to cover up if you dont have control of the whole country.

[wide winger]

BAAAAAAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! LMAO!!! You STILL believe IRAQ has WMD'S?!! LOL!

No silly other countries like Syria now hold WMD

[cASe SenSiTive]

That really is the five dollar question?
And many wish they had the answer.
It could be they are afraid to deploy them
cause its hard to control the toxic gas once its released and world opinion
if they do use it.
Its hard to cover up if you dont have control of the whole country.


I understand that argument, but it doesn't really hold up. Do you think that guys who are willing to blow themselves up or send videotapes of them chopping off prisoner's heads are really afraid of what using a WMD would do to their world image?

[L98Terror]

http://thatvideosite.com/video/3312

:ty:

http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/images/tn-mayday.jpg[
WOW what a dumb ass, you can tell how important everyone thinks his opinion is by the attendence...was he the only one there?

[L98Terror]

At least someone had the balls to speak what over 1/2 the country thinks. Talk about the problem is the first step toward change.

Keep in mind 50% of the country are in the bottom 50% of intelligence

[Crazzy_Al]

...By the way, what the fuck is that avatar?
Looks like a red hot turbo, but the pic is quite small.

[cASe SenSiTive]

Keep in mind 50% of the country are in the bottom 50% of intelligence


Now now... there's no need to insult all the people who voted for Bush.


;)

[wide winger]

Now now... there's no need to insult all the people who voted for Bush.


;)

I do think you have that backwards.

[wide winger]

I understand that argument, but it doesn't really hold up. Do you think that guys who are willing to blow themselves up or send videotapes of them chopping off prisoner's heads are really afraid of what using a WMD would do to their world image?

Who knows what those people are thinking, they are very irrational:dontknow:
Pluse they only blow up the ones they can talk into it, the leaders would not and dont blow themselfs up into little pieces.

[Sean124]

Who knows what those people are thinking, they are very irrational:dontknow:
Pluse they only blow up the ones they can talk into it, the leaders would not and dont blow themselfs up into little pieces.

Are you suggesting that people are sheep and the religous leaders often heard their flocks into irrational behaviors ?

[L98Terror]

Are you suggesting that people are sheep and the religous leaders often heard their flocks into irrational behaviors ?
They aren't

[Sean124]

They aren't

Lets make a apple's orange's anaology. 2 extreme but non rational thinking to say the least.

the catholic chruch strongly opposes bitrh control.
Islam leaders want to impose islamic law.

hmmmm are they really that different since Christian religous leaders often try to push abstinence programs and abhor the use of birth control???

Islamic leaders make women wear Hjiabs and birkas ?

Both are religous leaders trying to impose their will on the people through goverenance

[lab1702]

One difference that I think stands out between the catholic church and islamic leaders of today, is that as far as I can tell, the catholic church doesn't use its power over its members to make them kill non-catholics.

[uluz2a6]

http://www.thatlitevideosite.com/view/3255


http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/2330/4284/50311.jpg

[wide winger]

Are you suggesting that people are sheep and the religous leaders often heard their flocks into irrational behaviors ?

Yes people are sheep, they follow religous leaders, rock stars, oprah, ect.

[L98Terror]

Lets make a apple's orange's anaology. 2 extreme but non rational thinking to say the least.

the catholic chruch strongly opposes bitrh control.
Islam leaders want to impose islamic law.

hmmmm are they really that different since Christian religous leaders often try to push abstinence programs and abhor the use of birth control???

Islamic leaders make women wear Hjiabs and birkas ?

Both are religous leaders trying to impose their will on the people through goverenance

What are you talking about?:dontknow:

[91Notch]

What are you talking about?:dontknow:

He's gotta get some shots in at the Christians ;)

[CableGuy]

WOW what a dumb ass, you can tell how important everyone thinks his opinion is by the attendence...was he the only one there?


Are you kidding?

Have you ever watched any "for cause" meetings? Rep or dem no one is ever there, thats just how it goes.

[L98Terror]

Are you kidding?

Have you ever watched any "for cause" meetings? Rep or dem no one is ever there, thats just how it goes.

No I'm not, this people bitch for headlines or to hear themselves talk not to solve problems.
Goes to show you how important our representatives feel running the government is.

[uluz2a6]

No I'm not, this people bitch for headlines or to hear themselves talk not to solve problems.
Goes to show you how important our representatives feel running the government is.


Maybe he was representing the 56+% of Americans who don't support BUSH.:mmm:

[L98Terror]

Maybe he was representing the 56+% of Americans who don't support BUSH.:mmm:
Just a question for you since you seem to know everything anti-Bush those figures the stated about the cost of the Iraq war...were does the money go?


BTW just because 56% don't supprort doesn't mean all 56% support someone else you could win an electon with 44% of the vote

[wide winger]

So where did they go? Did our govenment let Iraq sneek them out right under our noses?

And really, if there are al of these WMDs in possesion of guys that hate us, why haven't they used even ONE against us? It'd be like me punching you in the face repeatedly while you just left your gun in your pocket so I wouldn't know you had it.:dontknow:

Id say yes, its a large country and we arent everywhere all the time.

Listed below is a chronology of key developments in Iraq's WMD programs, including the latest U.S. and UN concerns.

Iraq has produced several thousand tons of chemical weapons over the last 20 years. Iraq had roughly 1,000 metric tons of chemical weapons on hand when it invaded Kuwait, split roughly equally between blister agents and nerve agents.

March 16, 1988 — Iraqi President Saddam Hussein attacks the Iranian occupied Kurdish town of Halabja with chemical weapons killing 5,000 civilians.

Iraq had a crash effort in 1990 to recover enriched fuel from nuclear reactors in an attempt to build a weapon by 1991. Coalition aircraft destroyed the facilities on Jan. 17, 1991.

The UN inspection regime (UNSCOM) destroyed more than 27,000 chemical bombs, artillery shells and rockets, including 30 Scud missile warheads. About 500 tons of mustard and nerve agents and thousands of tons of precursor chemicals (choline and phosphorus pentasulfide for example) were also destroyed.

Iraq admitted prior to the Gulf War that it maintained large stockpiles of mustard gas and the nerve agents Sarin (GB) and Tabun (GA).

Iraq had a large VX production underway, and has not offered any evidence that the capability and stockpile have been destroyed. In 1996, Iraq admitted it had produced at least 3.9 tons of VX and at least 600 tons of ingredients to make it. (It is one of the deadliest forms of nerve gas and easily storable.)

Defection of Iraqi Lt. Gen. Hussein Majid, formerly in charge of WMD programs, led Iraq to admit its bio-weapon program in August 1995. Baghdad admitted to producing 90,000 liters of Botulinium toxin, 8,300 liters of Anthrax, and significant quantities of other agents, plus a laboratory and industrial-scale facility to continue production.

Defectors reported in December 2001 and March 2002 the existence of mobile germ laboratories disguised as milk delivery trucks, and a network of underground bunkers for chemical and biological weapons production. U.S. officials released evidence on March 8, 2002, allegedly showing that Iraq has been converting dump trucks bought through a UN humanitarian program into military vehicles, in violation of UN sanctions. An Iraqi defector stated that he had converted Renault trucks into mobile laboratories with incubators for bacteria, microscopes and air conditioning.

Intelligence reports indicate that Iraq is also developing newer and longer range missiles, with initial ranges of 600-700 miles; far enough to hit Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Ankara in Turkey, Cairo and Alexandria in Egypt, and Tehran in Iran. During Desert Storm, Iraq launched some 45 Scud missiles: one at Bahrain, five or six at Saudi Arabia, and 39 into Israel. Development of the Al Samoud liquid-propellant missile is ongoing; Iraq also is actively developing solid-propellant engines to build a multi-stage surface-to-surface missile.

Several reports indicate that Iraq is closer to a nuclear bomb than most people think. It has an efficient nuclear bomb design - with the new warhead weighing only about 1,300 pounds and 2 feet in diameter. The one thing lacking is fissile material to fuel it. Nuclear weapon specialists estimate if Saddam could buy the materials he is missing, it would only be a matter of months until Iraq created a weapon.

In January 2002, U.S. intelligence sources estimated the United States could face a ballistic missile threat from Iraq by the year 2015, well before such a threat emerged from Iran or North Korea.

Rumsfeld stated on April 15, 2002, that new equipment had allowed Iraq's weapon program to become more mobile, "enabling them to go underground to a greater extent than they had previously."

[uluz2a6]

Just a question for you since you seem to know everything anti-Bush those figures the stated about the cost of the Iraq war...were does the money go?

That's a question you should be asking the president.


BTW just because 56% don't supprort doesn't mean all 56% support someone else you could win an electon with 44% of the vote

Whatever makes you feel better.:dontknow:

[wide winger]

I'll ask again. Where did the WMDs go, and why hasn't even ONE terrorist group deployed them yet?

Mabey this will help.

http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php
Nizar Nayuf (Nayyouf-Nayyuf), a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) are kept. The storage places are:


-1- Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.

-2- The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian air force camp. Vital parts of Iraq's WMD are stored there.

-3-. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of Homs city.

[wide winger]

No silly other countries like Syria now hold WMD

:badass:

[L98Terror]

That's a question you should be asking the president.




Whatever makes you feel better.:dontknow:


That was a serious questions, I'm wondering if you are smarter than you seam. I know were alot of that money is going


and the second part is a fact.

[wide winger]

Don't forget the thousands of dead Iraqis too(although we both know that dead brown people don't matter to Republicans;)).
I'm sure the survivors are very happy that Saddam is no longer in power. Now they can have electricity for several hours a day in some cases, and only have to deal with a civil war in the streets.
Sounds much better than before to me.:dontknow:


It is better in Iraq than before we kicked sum butt!
Right chumley!

Documented human rights violations 1979-2003
Human rights organizations have documented government approved executions, acts of torture, and rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003.

In 2002, a resolution sponsored by the European Union was adopted by the Commission for Human Rights, which stated that there had been no improvement in the human rights crisis in Iraq. The statement condemned President Saddam Hussein's government for its "systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and international humanitarian law". The resolution demanded that Iraq immediately put an end to its "summary and arbitrary executions... the use of rape as a political tool and all enforced and involuntary disappearances".
Two years earlier, two human rights groups, the International Federation of Human Rights League and the Coalition for Justice in Iraq released a joint report, accusing the Saddam Hussein regime of committing "massive and systematic" human rights violations, particularly against women. The report spoke of public beheadings of women who were accused of being prostitutes, which took place in front of family members, including children. The heads of the victims were publicly displayed near signs reading, "For the honor of Iraq." The report documented 130 women who had been killed in this way, but stated that the actual number was probably much higher. The report also describes human rights violations directed against children. The report states that children, as young as 5 years old, are recruited into the Ashbal Saddam, or "Saddam's Cubs," and indoctrinated to adulate Saddam Hussein and denounce their own family members. The children are also subjected to military training, which includes cruelty to animals. The report also describes how parents of children are executed if they object to this treatment, and in some cases, the children themselves are imprisoned.
Full political participation at the national level was restricted only to members of the Arab Ba'ath Party, which constituted only 8% of the population. Therefore, it was impossible for Iraqi citizens to change their government.
Iraqi citizens were not allowed to assemble legally unless it was to express support for the government. The Iraqi government controlled the establishment of political parties, regulates their internal affairs and monitors their activities.
Police checkpoints on Iraqi's roads and highways prevented ordinary citizens from traveling abroad without government permission and expensive exit visas. Before traveling, an Iraqi citizen had to post collateral. Iraqi women could not travel outside of the country without the escort of a male relative.
The activities of citizens living inside Iraq who received money from relatives abroad were closely monitored.
In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations.
In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites.
In June of 1994, the Hussein regime in Iraq established severe penalties, including amputation, branding and the death penalty for criminal offenses such as theft, corruption, currency speculation and military desertion.
On March 23, 2003, during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Iraqi television presented and interviewed prisoners of war on TV, violating the Geneva Convention.
In March of 2003, Britain released video footage of Iraqi soldiers firing on fleeing Iraqi citizens near the town of Basra in southern Iraq.
Also in April of 2003, CNN revealed that it had withheld information about Iraq torturing journalists and Iraqi citizens in the 1990s. According to CNN's chief news executive, the channel had been concerned for the safety not only of its own staff, but also of Iraqi sources and informants, who could expect punishment for speaking freely to reporters. Also according to the executive, "other news organizations were in the same bind."[1]
After the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, several mass graves were found in Iraq containing several thousand bodies total, and more are being uncovered to this day. While most of the dead in the graves were believed to have died in the 1991 uprising against Saddam Hussein, some of them appeared to have died due to executions or died at times other than the 1991 rebellion.
Also after the invasion, numerous torture centers were found in security offices and police stations throughout Iraq. The equipment found at these centers typically included hooks for hanging people by the hands for beatings, devices for electric shock, and other equipment often found in nations with harsh security services and other Middle Eastern nations.
According to some reports, torture was used to improve the performance of the Iraqi soccer team.[2]

[wide winger]

Oooooohhh... Good job little neo-con. Now you just have to bring up the gays and you'll have hit all of the "important" issues. :rolleyes:


How about you stick to the argument at hand? I know it might be a little difficult since you don't have any real point to make, but at least put in the effort.

Ahh yes the new hip word you picked up :bored:

[Sean124]

What are you talking about?:dontknow:


drawing parrallels between religous extremism.

[Sean124]

He's gotta get some shots in at the Christians ;)

hey hey hey now. I take shots at all religions.

[uluz2a6]

It is better in Iraq than before we kicked sum butt!
Right chumley!

Documented human rights violations 1979-2003
Human rights organizations have documented government approved executions, acts of torture, and rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003.

In 2002, a resolution sponsored by the European Union was adopted by the Commission for Human Rights, which stated that there had been no improvement in the human rights crisis in Iraq. The statement condemned President Saddam Hussein's government for its "systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and international humanitarian law". The resolution demanded that Iraq immediately put an end to its "summary and arbitrary executions... the use of rape as a political tool and all enforced and involuntary disappearances".
Two years earlier, two human rights groups, the International Federation of Human Rights League and the Coalition for Justice in Iraq released a joint report, accusing the Saddam Hussein regime of committing "massive and systematic" human rights violations, particularly against women. The report spoke of public beheadings of women who were accused of being prostitutes, which took place in front of family members, including children. The heads of the victims were publicly displayed near signs reading, "For the honor of Iraq." The report documented 130 women who had been killed in this way, but stated that the actual number was probably much higher. The report also describes human rights violations directed against children. The report states that children, as young as 5 years old, are recruited into the Ashbal Saddam, or "Saddam's Cubs," and indoctrinated to adulate Saddam Hussein and denounce their own family members. The children are also subjected to military training, which includes cruelty to animals. The report also describes how parents of children are executed if they object to this treatment, and in some cases, the children themselves are imprisoned.
Full political participation at the national level was restricted only to members of the Arab Ba'ath Party, which constituted only 8% of the population. Therefore, it was impossible for Iraqi citizens to change their government.
Iraqi citizens were not allowed to assemble legally unless it was to express support for the government. The Iraqi government controlled the establishment of political parties, regulates their internal affairs and monitors their activities.
Police checkpoints on Iraqi's roads and highways prevented ordinary citizens from traveling abroad without government permission and expensive exit visas. Before traveling, an Iraqi citizen had to post collateral. Iraqi women could not travel outside of the country without the escort of a male relative.
The activities of citizens living inside Iraq who received money from relatives abroad were closely monitored.
In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations.
In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites.
In June of 1994, the Hussein regime in Iraq established severe penalties, including amputation, branding and the death penalty for criminal offenses such as theft, corruption, currency speculation and military desertion.
On March 23, 2003, during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Iraqi television presented and interviewed prisoners of war on TV, violating the Geneva Convention.
In March of 2003, Britain released video footage of Iraqi soldiers firing on fleeing Iraqi citizens near the town of Basra in southern Iraq.
Also in April of 2003, CNN revealed that it had withheld information about Iraq torturing journalists and Iraqi citizens in the 1990s. According to CNN's chief news executive, the channel had been concerned for the safety not only of its own staff, but also of Iraqi sources and informants, who could expect punishment for speaking freely to reporters. Also according to the executive, "other news organizations were in the same bind."[1]
After the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, several mass graves were found in Iraq containing several thousand bodies total, and more are being uncovered to this day. While most of the dead in the graves were believed to have died in the 1991 uprising against Saddam Hussein, some of them appeared to have died due to executions or died at times other than the 1991 rebellion.
Also after the invasion, numerous torture centers were found in security offices and police stations throughout Iraq. The equipment found at these centers typically included hooks for hanging people by the hands for beatings, devices for electric shock, and other equipment often found in nations with harsh security services and other Middle Eastern nations.
According to some reports, torture was used to improve the performance of the Iraqi soccer team.[2]

I guess you missed the lastest news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm

Iraq torture 'worse after Saddam'

Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN's chief anti-torture expert says. Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was "out of control", with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents.

Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue "often bear signs of severe torture", said the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq in a report.

The wounds confirmed reports given by refugees from Iraq, Mr Nowak said.

He told journalists at a briefing in Geneva that he had yet to visit Iraq, but he was able to base his information on autopsies and interviews with Iraqis in neighbouring Jordan.

"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," the Austrian law professor said.

"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein," he added.

Brutal methods

The UN report says detainees' bodies often show signs of beating using electrical cables, wounds in heads and genitals, broken legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns.

Bodies found at the Baghdad mortuary "often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances".

Many bodies have missing skin, broken bones, back, hands and legs, missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails, the UN report says.

Victims come from prisons run by US-led multinational forces as well as by the ministries of interior and defence and private militias, the report said.

The most brutal torture methods were employed by private militias, Mr Nowak told journalists.

The report also says the frequency of sectarian bloodletting means bodies are often found which "bear signs indicating that the victims have been brutally tortured before their extra-judicial execution".

It concludes that torture threatens "the very fabric of the country" as victims exact their own revenge and fuel further violence.

Mr Nowak said he would like to visit Iraq in person, but the current situation would not allow him to prepare an accurate report, because it would not be safe to leave Baghdad's heavily guarded Green Zone where the Iraqi government and US leadership are situated.

I bet you don't hear that news on RIGHT WING RADIO.

[uluz2a6]

Mabey this will help.

http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php
Nizar Nayuf (Nayyouf-Nayyuf), a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) are kept. The storage places are:


-1- Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.

-2- The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian air force camp. Vital parts of Iraq's WMD are stored there.

-3-. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of Homs city.

DEDICATED TO WIDE WINGER
http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW08-02-06.jpg

GET THE POINT YET?

[uluz2a6]

I know were alot of that money is going

You do? Tell me!!

I like to know!

SO far we have WASTED....

$318.5 billion (September 30, 2006)


Hmmm... 318 BILLION... I wonder what 318 BILLION would do if we had invested it in the homeland....

[Ortontucky Terror]

and a very high percentage of those that are killed are minorities

sorry but there not, granted there are a lot of minorities in the services, but they tend to avoid the infantry. the infantry is the ones taking the most casualties, most of them are white followed by hispanics and very few african americans. you find the most minorities in the remf jobs, like cooks, which are almost all african americans. commo, and transpo. the infantry are mainly young white boys waving an american flag, and usually have a confederate tattoo, its the good ol' boys club in the army.

[Ortontucky Terror]

So where did they go? Did our govenment let Iraq sneek them out right under our noses?

And really, if there are al of these WMDs in possesion of guys that hate us, why haven't they used even ONE against us? It'd be like me punching you in the face repeatedly while you just left your gun in your pocket so I wouldn't know you had it.:dontknow:

we found seran gas artillery rounds, and there are weapons production facilities that have been sealed since day 1 of the invasion because of fear of biological and chemical release if they are opened.

[Ortontucky Terror]

You really dont have any clue about how saddam ran that country.
He used gas to kill thousands of curds amd wipes out whloe famlies that said a word against him.

believe it or not, but most of iraq had a better standard of living before we invaded. but we are trying to make improvments in the infrastructure there, its kind of hard to rebuild when bush 1 destroyed 90% of the countrys infrastructure the first time around then we put an embargo on the country.

[Ortontucky Terror]

Who knows what those people are thinking, they are very irrational:dontknow:
Pluse they only blow up the ones they can talk into it, the leaders would not and dont blow themselfs up into little pieces.

a lot of the vbeids we had detonate the suicide man was usually cuffed and taped to the steering wheel. the are taking familys hostage and making the head of the house hold become a bomber. and in that social enviroment, if he wouldnt do it to save his family it would bring great dishonor upon himself and his tribe.

[wide winger]

Ya we should tax more, let everyone have free heath care and uncle sam can take care of all our needs cradle to grave. Close our boarders and wait for the next building to get distroyed, let our economy fall apart and loose our jobs. Sounds like a brillant plain to me.

No we should take the fight to them and keep our HOMELAND safe from evil mad men like them.

What we have here is a opion piece written by a left winger. How does he know how bad it was before we went into Iraq, read about saddam again, I think you missed it completly.

The piece about WMD's in syria was about a defector from syria not some right wing columnist, this man had first hand expierance in syria, but you refuse to see the truth.

[Sean124]

Ya we should tax more, let everyone have free heath care and uncle sam can take care of all our needs cradle to grave. Close our boarders and wait for the next building to get distroyed, let our economy fall apart and loose our jobs. Sounds like a brillant plain to me.

No we should take the fight to them and keep our HOMELAND safe from evil mand men lie them.

What we have here is a opion piece written by a left winger. How does he know how bad it was before we went into Iraq, read about saddam again, I think you missed it completly.

The piece about WMD's in syria was about a defector from syria not some right wing columnist, this man had first hand expierance in syria, but you refuse to see the truth.


Hmmm i have no problem with a voulantary national non profit goverment run health care system as long as its voulintary.

[wide winger]

But once you get the govenerment started in any system, it grows out of control in no time. And always out spends the most liberial estimates, pluse the quality goes down and down and down. Just like our education system.
Its gets worse and their answer, we need more of YOUR MONEY, not lets make the system better with imporvment, its always more money will fix the problem. The schools fall apart and they get large pay increases and more administrators and assistents, while the teachers get less and cant control the little darlings.

[wide winger]

Hmmm i have no problem with a voulantary national non profit goverment run health care system as long as its voulintary.

Our income tax system started out as a voulantary tax, now look at it!:monkeyfk:

[Crazzy_Al]

HATS OFF TO THE CUT AND PASTE GUYS!!!!!! GREAT WORK!!!!!!!!

[wide winger]

HATS OFF TO THE CUT AND PASTE GUYS!!!!!! GREAT WORK!!!!!!!!

You really dont think I want to type out all that stuff!

[Sean124]

Our income tax system started out as a voulantary tax, now look at it!:monkeyfk:

ahh when did this happen ? Our income tax system started out as liqour taxs.

[Sean124]

But once you get the govenerment started in any system, it grows out of control in no time. And always out spends the most liberial estimates, pluse the quality goes down and down and down. Just like our education system.
Its gets worse and their answer, we need more of YOUR MONEY, not lets make the system better with imporvment, its always more money will fix the problem. The schools fall apart and they get large pay increases and more administrators and assistents, while the teachers get less and cant control the little darlings.


Really so mediciad which operates on a 2%-3% admistrative exspense ( average blue cross blue shield HMO is around 30% ) is that inefficient. I will tell you what drives up the cost of health care. Malpratice Insurance, Medications,HMO profits admistrative costs not to mention the extremly edlery who disproportionatly use funds for their own mdeical issues. lets not even get into the rising diabetes epdemics and its sky rocketing health care costs due to rampant obesity and sugary foods.

Check into it.

had to edit. they have again revised there efficiency studys as far as i can find documentation on. looks likes its 4-6% of total expendidture on admistrative cost now.

[wide winger]

Show me the link to those #'s, I must go for now, I'm headed to Bowling Green for the NMRA racin.

[Sean124]

Show me the link to those #'s, I must go for now, I'm headed to Bowling Green for the NMRA racin.


http://www.aafp.org/PreBuilt/stateadvocacy_MedicaidAdministrativeCosts.pdf#sear ch='medicaid%20efficiency%20spending%20administrat ive'

summary of Harvard University study.

[L98Terror]

Really so mediciad which operates on a 2%-3% admistrative exspense ( average blue cross blue shield HMO is around 30% ) is that inefficient. I will tell you what drives up the cost of health care. Malpratice Insurance, Medications,HMO profits admistrative costs not to mention the extremly edlery who disproportionatly use funds for their own mdeical issues. lets not even get into the rising diabetes epdemics and its sky rocketing health care costs due to rampant obesity and sugary foods.

Check into it.

had to edit. they have again revised there efficiency studys as far as i can find documentation on. looks likes its 4-6% of total expendidture on admistrative cost now.


FYI At HFH the dept of surgery only collected on 52% of all billed procedures last year. I'm not an expert but I'm thinking that could have an effect on the cost of health care, some of that is people who feel they'd rather have 22" rims on their car than pay to have their life saved, uninsured illegals & procedures that medicare/insurance reimbursed less than the cost or the procedure.

[cASe SenSiTive]

FYI At HFH the dept of surgery only collected on 52% of all billed procedures last year. I'm not an expert but I'm thinking that could have an effect on the cost of health care, some of that is people who feel they'd rather have 22" rims on their car than pay to have their life saved, uninsured illegals & procedures that medicare/insurance reimbursed less than the cost or the procedure.


It's not all ghetto folks and illegals that don't pay. There are plenty of hard-working people out there who don't have health insurance. A hospital stay or surgery is basically an instant bankrupcy for many people. :dontknow:

[L98Terror]

It's not all ghetto folks and illegals that don't pay. There are plenty of hard-working people out there who don't have health insurance. A hospital stay or surgery is basically an instant bankrupcy for many people. :dontknow:

I'm aware of that, those people are in a hard situation. But that is a whole other thread. No one said life was easy.

Illegals and people getting elective/cosmetic and not paying would be a good start.

Most people choose to not have health insurance, it's a risk/reward thing. I went without it for over a year myself. Of course I said it was cause I couldn't afford it but really it was because I chose to spend that $500 a month somewhere else. I took a risk. Most people have that but would rather spend it on other things.
Including my inlaws that haven't had health insurance for years:icon_eek:

[mdhmi]

Most people I know who do not have health insurance don't have two cents to rub together. They are in bad positions because of job loss or job transition.

Illegals not paying for elective surgery is probably not a major reason health care in this country is so expensive.

There are no shortage of reasons why health is so expensive. Lots of fat, dumb, and lazy people who like to eat the wrong foods and not exercise account for a fair chunk, egregious hospital waste, litigation costs, inefficient patient records/billing systems, etc.

[Sean124]

FYI At HFH the dept of surgery only collected on 52% of all billed procedures last year. I'm not an expert but I'm thinking that could have an effect on the cost of health care, some of that is people who feel they'd rather have 22" rims on their car than pay to have their life saved, uninsured illegals & procedures that medicare/insurance reimbursed less than the cost or the procedure.


I know what your saying.

[Buuhbye guy]

Im not a democrat supporter but that guy was bad ass, I would vote for him if he ran for president.

[Ortontucky Terror]

Im not a democrat supporter but that guy was bad ass, I would vote for him if he ran for president.

i agree with you on that

[Performance Red Dale]

DEDICATED TO WIDE WINGER
http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW08-02-06.jpg

GET THE POINT YET?


Its about time Uluz posted a cartoon.