It's dead

[DBK]

That's what I'm told. As of right now, no way the bill gets through the Senate.

Have fun watching the market crash.

[91trunk]

Must not have been enough money in it for the Senate. I guess the Big 3 should have been paying them off like AIG and the gang. :shake:

[webleedorange619]

dang.

[ReiKo]

Hang on guys... It's about to get really fucking rough...


Way to go Shelby... You fucking moron...

[1989Formula]

hang on guys... It's about to get really fucking rough...


Way to go shelby... You fucking moron...

x100000000

[orangejuiced86]

Sad day when the US goverment won't help the US companies.

[ReiKo]

Sad day when the US goverment won't help the US companies.

Amen

[jsxtreme]

They did.

The previous loan was suppose to get banks lending again. Make it easier to buy cars and homes. But instead they used the money for bonus checks and to buy other banks. No one really knows where that money is going.

The banks aren't helping the big 3's situation at all. It's the only reason this loan should even be considered.

[Golden]

So the Senate is going to shoot it down?

[91trunk]

The sad part is we vote for these cock suckers! They do nothing but line their own pockets.

[mdhmi]

Sad day when the US goverment won't help the US companies.

More sad still is that the US government has undermined the Big Three with idiotic trade policies and non market driven fuel economy standards (CAFE).

[ReiKo]

The sad part is we vote for these cock suckers! They do nothing but line their own pockets.

x2

[Golden]

So what's going to happen with the retirees if the big 3 goes bankrupt? Pensions obsolete?

[lab1702]

The sad part is we vote for these cock suckers! They do nothing but line their own pockets.

True. But it's not the people from Michigan voting against it, is it? From what I have seen, it seems like the average person (voter) in other states think the big 3 should die, so the politicians are kinda representing their constituents, aren't they?

That's even more sad to me, that there are so many people out there on the net spewing anti-big 3 propaganda.

[DBK]

So what's going to happen with the retirees if the big 3 goes bankrupt? Pensions obsolete?

The PBGC will pick up about $20 billion in pension benefits. That's what makes this whole charade so idiotic. The government and taxpayers are going to end up picking up the tab anyways. Wonder what the social cost of several hundred thousand suddenly uninsured aging retirees is?

Something could still get done, but this is an extremely dangerous game of chicken. Chrysler and GM are literally 2-3 weeks from bankruptcy.

[cASe SenSiTive]

So what's going to happen with the retirees if the big 3 goes bankrupt? Pensions obsolete?

Nope. The taxpayers get stuck with that obligation.

[CableGuy]

Who the F is this Shelby guy? Someone needs to "kill" him! Seriously. He is NOT an American, he is a business man looking out for his own good. He doesn't care about the American people. All he cares about is his pocket book. This guy needs to go now.


So what's going to happen with the retirees if the big 3 goes bankrupt? Pensions obsolete?


Thats the least of my worries... they've made there 2-5 million over there life time, and should be set. I'm worried about my generation and if I ever had kids, their generation.

Hopefully GM can do chapter 11, cut loose a lot of the baggage and still be able to stick it out. I think ford would have to follow in order to keep up with a now lean GM though.


More sad still is that the US government has undermined the Big Three with idiotic trade policies and non market driven fuel economy standards (CAFE).My thoughts exactly...

[ReiKo]

So what's going to happen with the retirees if the big 3 goes bankrupt? Pensions obsolete?

Good question..

[cASe SenSiTive]

True. But it's not the people from Michigan voting against it, is it? From what I have seen, it seems like the average person (voter) in other states think the big 3 should die, so the politicians are kinda representing their constituents, aren't they?

That's even more sad to me, that there are so many people out there on the net spewing anti-big 3 propaganda.

People in general are idiots. Most folks don't look at things from a big picture perspective. So a lot of the country simply cannot see the potential impact of the Big 3 failing.

[lab1702]

People in general are idiots. Most folks don't look at things from a big picture perspective. So a lot of the country simply cannot see the potential impact of the Big 3 failing.

Exactly. This is why I think those politicians do what they do though. They would never be on TV saying things they didn't think would get them re-elected. That must be a reason they are being stupid now, because the people who put them in office are stupid. :D

[Golden]

Something could still get done, but this is an extremely dangerous game of chicken. Chrysler and GM are literally 2-3 weeks from bankruptcy.

Scary.

[1989Formula]

More sad still is that the US government has undermined the Big Three with idiotic trade policies and non market driven fuel economy standards (CAFE).

you hit the nail on the head

[ReiKo]

Like it was said before... It's funny how the gov. slammed the big three in everything... Yet aren't they the ones who put us another 4-5 trillion in debt???

[91trunk]

Media=Big 3 bailout [strikes fear in the hearts of the public so they keep using it]

General public=Big 3 bailout [aren't smart enough to realize it's a loan because of the media]

Government=Big 3 bailout [not enough ways to control the auto makers and capitalize on it]

The real truth=Loan for the Big 3 [is what this really is]

[Sean]

Wow alot of uninsured retiress who have very exspensive health care costs. I wouldn't imagine that the insurance lobby wouldn;t be against the bailout ? I mean if GM health care goes away how many customers are they going to pick up ?


The PBGC will pick up about $20 billion in pension benefits. That's what makes this whole charade so idiotic. The government and taxpayers are going to end up picking up the tab anyways. Wonder what the social cost of several hundred thousand suddenly uninsured aging retirees is?

Something could still get done, but this is an extremely dangerous game of chicken. Chrysler and GM are literally 2-3 weeks from bankruptcy.

[jsxtreme]

Don't forget the PORK!!!!! Gotta make your buddies rich while you're at it!

<---Enlarges fine print at bottom of article. :lol:



By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS and KEN THOMAS




WASHINGTON (AP) - A House-passed bill to speed $14 billion in loans to Detroit's automakers stands on shaky ground in a bailout-weary Congress, undermined by Republican opposition that could derail the emergency aid in the Senate.

Republicans are challenging lame-duck President George W. Bush on the proposal, arguing that any support for the domestic auto industry should carry significant concessions from autoworkers and creditors and reject tougher environmental rules imposed by House Democrats.

The House approved the plan late Wednesday on a vote of 237-170. It would infuse money within days into cash-starved General Motors Corp. (GM) and Chrysler LLC. Ford Motor Co. (F), which has said it has enough cash to make it through 2009, would also be eligible for federal aid.

Supporters cited dire warnings from GM and Chrysler executives, who have said they could run out of cash within weeks, and concerns that a carmaker collapse would erase tens of thousands of jobs and jolt an already bleak economy.


(AP) White House Deputy Chief of Staff Joel Kaplan briefs reporters, Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2008, at the...
Full Image


Democrats and the Bush White House hoped the Senate would vote on the legislation as early as Thursday. But based on concerns raised by GOP senators - and a still-uncertain level of support even among Democrats - they had a lot of work to do.

A leading Senate Republican opponent said Thursday that he cannot back spending $14 billion of taxpayer money on a plan that would call for a restructuring of the industry, but which fails to detail just how that would be accomplished.

"I think that is putting the cart before the horse and isn't reponsible in terms of tax dollars," Sen. David Vitter of Louisiana said on CBS's "The Early Show."

The measure's murky outlook reflected the difficulty of approving another federal financial rescue on the heels of the deeply unpopular, $700 billion Wall Street bailout, as the clock ticks down on the current Congress and Bush's influence is at a low ebb.

"People realize that this bill is an incredibly weak bill (and) is the product of an administration that wants to kick the can down the road and let somebody else deal with it," said Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn.


(AP) In this Dec. 4, 2008 file photo, auto executives, from left, General Motors Chief Executive Officer...
Full Image


Even Republicans representing states with automobile plants said the proposal was far from ideal. Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., whose state is home to five auto plants, said he wanted to see changes. Sen. George Voinovich, R-Ohio, said the bill lacked the necessary Republicans to pass the Senate.

The measure would create a government "car czar," to be named by Bush to issue the loans, empowered with the ability to yank back the loans and force the carmakers into bankruptcy next spring if they fail to cut quick deals with labor unions, creditors and others to restructure their businesses and become viable.

Opposition wasn't limited to Republicans.

Democratic Sen. Max Baucus of Montana is opposing the measure because of a provision to bail out transit agencies that were involved in transactions now considered unlawful tax shelters.

Under the House-passed bill, the carmakers would have to submit blueprints on March 31 to the industry overseer showing how they would restructure to ensure their survival, although they could be given until the end of May to negotiate with the government on a final agreement.


(AP) White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten, left, leaves the Capitol after attending the Senate GOP...
Full Image


The automakers initially asked Congress for $25 billion, then returned two weeks later to plead for as much as $34 billion. But with the White House refusing to dole out new spending for the Big Three, congressional Democrats agreed to use an existing program that was to help carmakers retool their factories to make more fuel-efficient cars.

That fund yielded only $15 billion in emergency loans, and when negotiators agreed to leave some money in the environmental program, the amount fell to $14 billion.

Democrats agreed to scrap language - which the White House had declared a deal-breaker - that would have forced the carmakers to drop lawsuits challenging tough emissions limits in California and other states. But they kept a provision to force the automakers to abide by those states' limits - a kind of consolation prize for environmentalists, who already were livid at the raid of the fuel-efficiency program.

Senate Democrats unveiled a nearly identical measure that omitted the requirement, but that bill still faced long odds.

The Bush administration is expected to work with President-elect Barack Obama's team on choosing the industry czar. The overseer would have say-so over any major business decisions by the automakers while they were taking advantage of federal aid, with veto power over any transaction of $100 million or more.

The measure also would attach an array of conditions to the bailout money, including some of the same restrictions imposed on banks as part of the $700 billion Wall Street rescue. Among them are limits on executive compensation, a prohibition on paying dividends and requirements that the government share in future profits and taxpayers be repaid before any other shareholders.

Also included in the bill is an unrelated pay raise for federal judges.

[ReiKo]

This is bullshit... What happened on getting your raise the old fashion way? What the fuck... :rant:

[Dr. Teeth]

Wow alot of uninsured retiress who have very exspensive health care costs. I wouldn't imagine that the insurance lobby wouldn;t be against the bailout ? I mean if GM health care goes away how many customers are they going to pick up ?


Good point, Sean, I'd imagine quite a few. Most of them will qualify for Medicare at one point or another, and that will soak up a lot of the costs. Their private insurance will be secondary and I suspect that they'd make $$ off of that alone.

[82hatch]

More sad still is that the US government has undermined the Big Three with idiotic trade policies and non market driven fuel economy standards (CAFE).


x 1,000,000

[Sean]

You have to realize that their are a lot of pocket linning money making deals if the big 3 go under. Banks will be able to buy these companies for near nothing recapitalize them lobby for policy changes and rebuild the industry at a very exceptional profit.

[nitrousrick]

Thats the least of my worries... they've made there 2-5 million over there life time, and should be set. I'm worried about my generation and if I ever had kids, their generation.

2 Million over 40 years is only 50k a year, why should they be all set? Did they not have a family to raise, kids to put through college etc? My dad is a retired white collar GM worker and living off a smaller % of his pension will really hurt him and my mom. My dad is too young to collect SS so until he's 62 and can collect he'll be pretty much screwed.

Edit: Also when these guys who are 60ish now were starting out they didn't make anywhere near 50k a year so your 2-5 million number is high.

[DBK]

My dad is a retired white collar GM worker and living off a smaller % of his pension will really hurt him and my mom.

I think the PBGC max is somewhere around $45k a year so alot of people won't be completely crushed.

[jsxtreme]

http://clipsandcomment.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/1210autobill.pdf


(c) AUTHORIZATION OF FISCAL YEAR 2009 COST OF
5 LIVING SALARY ADJUSTMENT FOR JUSTICES AND
6 JUDGES.—Pursuant to section 140 of Public Law 97–92,
7 justices and judges of the United States are authorized
8 during fiscal year 2009 to receive a salary adjustment in
9 accordance with section 461 of title 28, United States
10 Code.
11

[Dr. Teeth]

2 Million over 40 years is only 50k a year, why should they be all set? Did they not have a family to raise, kids to put through college etc? My dad is a retired white collar GM worker and living off a smaller % of his pension will really hurt him and my mom. My dad is too young to collect SS so until he's 62 and can collect he'll be pretty much screwed.

Edit: Also when these guys who are 60ish now were starting out they didn't make anywhere near 50k a year so your 2-5 million number is high.


My understanding was that the pension fund was overfunded, and that's why when they axed the health benefits they gave a $300 raise to the retirees to pay for secondary coverage.

[nitrousrick]

I think the PBGC max is somewhere around $45k a year so alot of people won't be completely crushed.

I just checked their tables out, I'll have to check with my old man to see how much he'll take a hit on. What happens with health care?

[BigWheelinBubba]

On a positive note the credit unions are all banding together to write loans for new cars. In turn GM is offering credit union members the supplier discount. It may be too late but at least someone is stepping forward with some kind of crutch.

[GTPprix]

You know i'm very quickly running out of things to be proud of in this country.......

[CableGuy]

2 Million over 40 years is only 50k a year, why should they be all set? Did they not have a family to raise, kids to put through college etc? My dad is a retired white collar GM worker and living off a smaller % of his pension will really hurt him and my mom. My dad is too young to collect SS so until he's 62 and can collect he'll be pretty much screwed.

Edit: Also when these guys who are 60ish now were starting out they didn't make anywhere near 50k a year so your 2-5 million number is high.

My grandmother is a GM retiree... retired in '93 with 34 years in.

I've sat and talked with her about how much she made when she got hired in. A whopping 31K a year. What did she end with? Over 130K a year with out any overtime or options.

So let's take the last 10 years of her working times, worth at least 1 million right there. Take the other 24 years -- I'm sure they add up to more than 2 million. Then add the options in, and then her current pension.. Wow talk about a lot of money.

Or how about my father, who has had many years as a skilled trades for GM raking in 115K+ (One year was almost 160K with overtime and 1 patent bonus). Was hired in @ 42K a year back in 1981. Finished at just under 70K a year. But as everyone knows, when the times were good, overtime was flying out the door as if it was going out of style.

Again, I really don't care about either of them in a financial term in comparison to me and my generation) and how they live. My grandmother is 70ish (I forget exactly) and has made GREAT decisions in her life and will have no problems at all taking her 2-4 vacations a year along with owning a home here in MI, and a home in FL. My father, didn't make some so great decision, but still has a condo that is paid off and just got 70K from GM on a buy out. I think he'll be fine for a while.

How old are you? Where do you live?

I am 24, own my own house, luckily don't have kids, but when I lose my job at the big 3, who is going to pay my house note? I guess I'll just have to call my grandma to pay it for me. :yeah right:

These example are not just in my family... everyone was doing it. There is a reason that 300K houses in the metro detroit area were flying off the shelves over the last 10 years.

[jdustu]

So what you saying is that they should have planned on not recieving a retirement package that was part of their compensation in the first place? It doesn't matter how much you make, if you plan on getting more that is owed to you, you make different choices. If they didn't plan on getting a pension, I'm sure the money they made in the past would have been saved and it would have been enough. But they were counting a pension, it was part of their compensation.

-Josh

[nitrousrick]

My grandmother is a GM retiree... retired in '93 with 34 years in.

I've sat and talked with her about how much she made when she got hired in. A whopping 31K a year. What did she end with? Over 130K a year with out any overtime or options.

So let's take the last 10 years of her working times, worth at least 1 million right there. Take the other 24 years -- I'm sure they add up to more than 2 million. Then add the options in, and then her current pension.. Wow talk about a lot of money.

Or how about my father, who has had many years as a skilled trades for GM raking in 115K+ (One year was almost 160K with overtime and 1 patent bonus). Was hired in @ 42K a year back in 1981. Finished at just under 70K a year. But as everyone knows, when the times were good, overtime was flying out the door as if it was going out of style.

Again, I really don't care about either of them in a financial term in comparison to me and my generation) and how they live. My grandmother is 70ish (I forget exactly) and has made GREAT decisions in her life and will have no problems at all taking her 2-4 vacations a year along with owning a home here in MI, and a home in FL. My father, didn't make some so great decision, but still has a condo that is paid off and just got 70K from GM on a buy out. I think he'll be fine for a while.

How old are you? Where do you live?

I am 24, own my own house, luckily don't have kids, but when I lose my job at the big 3, who is going to pay my house note? I guess I'll just have to call my grandma to pay it for me. :yeah right:

These example are not just in my family... everyone was doing it. There is a reason that 300K houses in the metro detroit area were flying off the shelves over the last 10 years.


Sounds like your family did great for themselves.

My dad is a retired sr. designer he had 40 years in and left at 58 in May. I'm pretty sure he didn't have many years in that 40 where he made over 100K. On 40 hours that's almost 50 bucks an hours and he never worked OT. He started in 1968 and I can assure you he didn't make 31k or 42k in his first years like your examples.

I'm 33, live in Oxford and have a knocked up wife, I worry about myself but I also worry about the retired worker who is getting screwed.

[Shadowfox]

this is the End as we know it !!!

[nitrousrick]

So what you saying is that they should have planned on not recieving a retirement package that was part of their compensation in the first place? It doesn't matter how much you make, if you plan on getting more that is owed to you, you make different choices. If they didn't plan on getting a pension, I'm sure the money they made in the past would have been saved and it would have been enough. But they were counting a pension, it was part of their compensation.

-Josh

I agree, I'm young enough to change things in my life to make sure my family is ok.

[CableGuy]

Sounds like your family did great for themselves.

My dad is a retired sr. designer he had 40 years in and left at 58 in May. I'm pretty sure he didn't have many years in that 40 where he made over 100K. On 40 hours that's almost 50 bucks an hours and he never worked OT. He started in 1968 and I can assure you he didn't make 31k or 42k in his first years like your examples.

I'm 33, live in Oxford and have a knocked up wife, I worry about myself but I also worry about the retired worker who is getting screwed.


I see what you are saying... but how are they getting screwed?

They had their 30-40 years in and with the times making great money.

If it takes for them to lose their pension for me to put my 5th year(let alone my 20th or 30th) in and keep a job I see it as worth it.

(That would be me, and about 2-3 million others.)

[jsxtreme]

Whoops, wrong copy and paste. :lol:

[jdustu]

I see what you are saying... but how are they getting screwed?

They had their 30-40 years in and with the times making great money.

If it takes for them to lose their pension for me to put my 5th year(let alone my 20th or 30th) in and keep a job I see it as worth it.

If they are to lose their pensions, they are getting screwed because that was part of their compensation. It's one thing to work for a certain wage, it's another thing to work for that wage and then have it taken away after the fact.

"great money" is not the point. The fact is that a lot of people counted on and worked towards their pension. If that gets taken away, then I would count that as being "screwed"

Personally I'm not counting on a pension, because the landscape has changed. Even though that's counted as part of the money I make, I doubt I'll see it. But 20 years ago I think most people were certain that those benefits would still be there.

[Golden]

If they are to lose their pensions, they are getting screwed because that was part of their compensation. It's one thing to work for a certain wage, it's another thing to work for that wage and then have it taken away after the fact.

"great money" is not the point. The fact is that a lot of people counted on and worked towards their pension. If that gets taken away, then I would count that as being "screwed"

Personally I'm not counting on a pension, because the landscape has changed. Even though that's counted as part of the money I make, I doubt I'll see it. But 20 years ago I think most people were certain that those benefits would still be there.

x2.

[mdhmi]

You know I'm very quickly running out of things to be proud of in this country.......

This is probably the most profound statement in this thread. What's really happening is that our fundamental institutions are or have been undermined by greed and corruption.

That's all it is - whether it be government, unions, executives, whatever. Everyone has behaved as if they are the only ones that mattered. And now we're starting to see the inevitable result of that..

Be proud of our many freedoms - we are still a land of opportunity.


My grandmother is a GM retiree... retired in '93 with 34 years in. .. she made $31K when she was hired in

She must have been an executive if she was making $31K in 1959. That would be roughly $220K in 2007 dollars.


I am 24, own my own house, luckily don't have kids, but when I lose my job at the big 3, who is going to pay my house note? I guess I'll just have to call my grandma to pay it for me. :yeah right:

Another good point. When someone loses their job they become a drain on their local communities and often their close family members. The point is their job loss impacts many other people. For example, if a parent or child or even a sibling were to lose their job I probably wouldn't go out and buy a new car or take a fancy trip. I'd want to have extra cash in reserves to help them if needed.

[Fryguy302]

If it takes for them to lose their pension for me to put my 5th year(let alone my 20th or 30th) in and keep a job I see it as worth it.


Are you kidding?? They worked their whole lives for the pension. It was part of the deal. That's exactly like stealing. That's like working for years and then having a company take the money BACK OUT OF YOUR BANK ACCOUNT because they needed the money. That is unacceptable. I can't believe you just typed that.

[82hatch]

This is probably the most profound statement in this thread. What's really happening is that our fundamental institutions are or have been undermined by greed and corruption.



That's all it is - whether it be government, unions, executives, whatever. Everyone has behaved as if they are the only ones that mattered. And now we're starting to see the inevitable result of that..


Agree 100%

We are now seeing the consequences of that. It's what happens when everyone uses the "I'm trying to get mine-screw everyone else" mentality. Too bad it's going to hurt some of use that doesn't us that doen't have that mentality. :shake:

[WhiteHawk]

Who is talking about losing pensions? Last I heard the pensions were fully funded.

-Geoff

[GTPprix]

Be proud of our many freedoms - we are still a land of opportunity.


I'm trying! Even though I'm watching more of those be stripped from me and the possibility of even more but thats for a whole 'nother topic all together :(

[jdustu]

Who is talking about losing pensions? Last I heard the pensions were fully funded.

-Geoff

I think a hypothetical got thrown in there and it grew legs:)

[82hatch]

I think a hypothetical got thrown in there and it grew legs:)


...and started sprinting :lol:

[Fryguy302]

I think a hypothetical got thrown in there and it grew legs:)


It did, but it was amazing to me, so I commented on it. Absolutely amazing. Another example of short sighted people only caring about themselves.

[Golden]

Who is talking about losing pensions? Last I heard the pensions were fully funded.

-Geoff

I asked what would happen to pensions if the Big 3 went under, because I just didn't know the answer.

[GTPprix]

Sort of on topic, my father is a GM Retiree although at a different level than most I've seen discussed. Hes told me on several occasions his retirement was third party insured.

[WhiteHawk]

I asked what would happen to pensions if the Big 3 went under, because I just didn't know the answer.

I am pretty sure the answer is that the pension system is fully funded. That is why you don't hear about it. GM did some things right - about five years ago they sold a bunch of bonds and stocked the pension system pretty much forever.

-Geoff

[Fryguy302]

I am pretty sure the answer is that the pension system is fully funded. That is why you don't hear about it. GM did some things right - about five years ago they sold a bunch of bonds and stocked the pension system pretty much forever.

-Geoff


If I understand it correctly, Ford's is that way also.

[mdhmi]

Hes told me on several occasions his retirement was third party insured.

By AIG? http://www.mdhmi.com/pics/smilies/rofl.gif

[GTPprix]

By AIG? http://www.mdhmi.com/pics/smilies/rofl.gif

Bwahahhaahh no they only insure company parties :D

[CableGuy]

If they are to lose their pensions, they are getting screwed because that was part of their compensation. It's one thing to work for a certain wage, it's another thing to work for that wage and then have it taken away after the fact.

"great money" is not the point. The fact is that a lot of people counted on and worked towards their pension. If that gets taken away, then I would count that as being "screwed"

Personally I'm not counting on a pension, because the landscape has changed. Even though that's counted as part of the money I make, I doubt I'll see it. But 20 years ago I think most people were certain that those benefits would still be there.


OK fine... lets do it your way. Pay them their pensions, don't cut any union compensation... and then in 6 months when the American car companies are all out of business (Chap 11 and then Chap 7) and NO ONE HAS A PENSION OR A JOB, Ill give you and our parents a big thumbs up.

[CableGuy]

Are you kidding?? They worked their whole lives for the pension. It was part of the deal. That's exactly like stealing. That's like working for years and then having a company take the money BACK OUT OF YOUR BANK ACCOUNT because they needed the money. That is unacceptable. I can't believe you just typed that.


It did, but it was amazing to me, so I commented on it. Absolutely amazing. Another example of short sighted people only caring about themselves.

Exactly.. myself.

Read above post. Lets keep it just how it is now... (Seems to be working great!)

Since Toyota, Honda and all of these other companies don't have these HUGE obligations, and are selling "a better car" at a lower price-- seems to be working great for the BIG 3, something has to change.

[Fryguy302]

Exactly.. myself.

Read above post. Lets keep it just how it is now... (Seems to be working great!)

Since Toyota, Honda and all of these other companies don't have these HUGE obligations, and are selling "a better car" at a lower price-- seems to be working great for the BIG 3, something has to change.

Are you even paying attention? The pensions aren't even the issue here. Nice solution you're proposing though, we'll just steal from old people to solve it :lol:

[2001-WS6]

Everyone keeps missing bits and pieces of this Big 3 "bankruptcy" problem because it's so big that you really can't wrap your mind around all of the problems that are going to come along with it. It's like seeing the front of an Avalanche and saying to yourself, Gee, I should move now or that snow might kill me. The snow that you see might not kill you but the weight of being buried by everything behind that initial wall of snow will probably finish you off.

The pension systems were fully funded based the actuarial calculations made before the market crashed and the assets that were purchased with the assigned funds have now tanked. Like most pension systems, these funds tend to be invested in "stable investments" such as bonds issued by the Fed or large manufacturing companies or financial companies. The Fed T-bills may be good but a lot of pensions tend to buy up corporate bonds because the Big 3, G&E and other manufacturing giants will "always" be there. :(

I'd venture to guess that the majority of the $68 billion in bonds that GM has outstanding are held by pension funds that can not afford to see them get wiped out and the irony is they were issued to help pay for the GM pensions. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Alabama or California pension funds were be GM bond holders. Imagine that the GM paper suddenly becomes worth nothing in a worst case bankruptcy. Now all those companies and states have make up for those lost funds potentially driving another big company into bankruptcy as they try to meet their pension requirements but can't because of the credit freeze and fear of new bonds. You can see how the "tit for tat" quickly flows as some of the bottom cards get pull out of the card house or pyramid scheme that we like to call our pensions.

If we think the AIG mortgage mess is out of control, watch what happens when the Big 3 and government (state and federal) pensions start to tank when all of these bonds get wiped out in bankruptcy.

Rick

[2L8IWIN]

The House, and Nany Pelosi, are just going to have to concede more in the bargaining for the Senate to agree. Cut more debt, lower UAW wages, and take equity for VEBA payments.

Plus many of these Senator's that are against the Bill are being removed next month by Democrats who recieved funding from the UAW.


"The House went home after passing its plan last night. Speaker Nancy Pelosi tossed a challenge to senators, saying on Bloomberg Television she wouldn’t bring her chamber back for further action if the Senate passed a different version."

[CableGuy]

Are you even paying attention? The pensions aren't even the issue here. Nice solution you're proposing though, we'll just steal from old people to solve it :lol:


Obviously your not paying attention. Go read a few posts up on how this idea started..

The sentence starts with a BIG "IF".

All I'm saying is something needs to be done. What, who knows. But we just cant compete with these compaines who dont take care of their workers and do not have this huge cloud hanging over their heads.

[DBK]

The pension funds were funded at the end of 2007. By now, with the trillions in wiped out equity, I highly doubt they'd legitimately be able to meet all their obligations. The long-term low-level employee would be much better off than the long-term higher level employee. On the one hand, that's good because a bigger chunk of the people wouldn't be screwed, but then again, you'd likely have a ton of defaults as people suddenly couldn't afford their houses in a market where nobody is buying anyways.

[1BADAIR]

The US is gonna be on ebay soon

[WhiteHawk]

Imagine that the GM paper suddenly becomes worth nothing in a worst case bankruptcy. Now all those companies and states have make up for those lost funds potentially driving another big company into bankruptcy as they try to meet their pension requirements but can't because of the credit freeze and fear of new bonds. You can see how the "tit for tat" quickly flows as some of the bottom cards get pull out of the card house or pyramid scheme that we like to call our pensions.

Rick

That is what people don't get. If congress doesn't vote GM $14 Billion or whatever they want, then they are going to be on the hook for that $70 Billion.

-Geoff

[nitrousrick]

Everyone keeps missing bits and pieces of this Big 3 "bankruptcy" problem because it's so big that you really can't wrap your mind around all of the problems that are going to come along with it. It's like seeing the front of an Avalanche and saying to yourself, Gee, I should move now or that snow might kill me. The snow that you see might not kill you but the weight of being buried by everything behind that initial wall of snow will probably finish you off.

The pension systems were fully funded based the actuarial calculations made before the market crashed and the assets that were purchased with the assigned funds have now tanked. Like most pension systems, these funds tend to be invested in "stable investments" such as bonds issued by the Fed or large manufacturing companies or financial companies. The Fed T-bills may be good but a lot of pensions tend to buy up corporate bonds because the Big 3, G&E and other manufacturing giants will "always" be there. :(

I'd venture to guess that the majority of the $68 billion in bonds that GM has outstanding are held by pension funds that can not afford to see them get wiped out and the irony is they were issued to help pay for the GM pensions. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Alabama or California pension funds were be GM bond holders. Imagine that the GM paper suddenly becomes worth nothing in a worst case bankruptcy. Now all those companies and states have make up for those lost funds potentially driving another big company into bankruptcy as they try to meet their pension requirements but can't because of the credit freeze and fear of new bonds. You can see how the "tit for tat" quickly flows as some of the bottom cards get pull out of the card house or pyramid scheme that we like to call our pensions.

If we think the AIG mortgage mess is out of control, watch what happens when the Big 3 and government (state and federal) pensions start to tank when all of these bonds get wiped out in bankruptcy.

Rick


I can always count on you to make it easier to understand. Thansk Rick! :D

[patman]

Who the F is this Shelby guy? Someone needs to "kill" him! Seriously. He is NOT an American, he is a business man looking out for his own good. He doesn't care about the American people. All he cares about is his pocket book. This guy needs to go now.




Thats the least of my worries... they've made there 2-5 million over there life time, and should be set. I'm worried about my generation and if I ever had kids, their generation.

Hopefully GM can do chapter 11, cut loose a lot of the baggage and still be able to stick it out. I think ford would have to follow in order to keep up with a now lean GM though.

My thoughts exactly...


2 Million over 40 years is only 50k a year, why should they be all set? Did they not have a family to raise, kids to put through college etc? My dad is a retired white collar GM worker and living off a smaller % of his pension will really hurt him and my mom. My dad is too young to collect SS so until he's 62 and can collect he'll be pretty much screwed.

Edit: Also when these guys who are 60ish now were starting out they didn't make anywhere near 50k a year so your 2-5 million number is high.


X2

Cableguy, you're being very narrow minded.

[patman]

Sounds like your family did great for themselves.

My dad is a retired sr. designer he had 40 years in and left at 58 in May. I'm pretty sure he didn't have many years in that 40 where he made over 100K. On 40 hours that's almost 50 bucks an hours and he never worked OT. He started in 1968 and I can assure you he didn't make 31k or 42k in his first years like your examples.

I'm 33, live in Oxford and have a knocked up wife, I worry about myself but I also worry about the retired worker who is getting screwed.

You're a good man. +1

My dad also retired from GM. I can tell you he never made 100k in one year.

I'm 46, my 4 kids are grown but I still worry about my folks. Funny thing about family, if things get tough for me, they'd try hard to help me through. Why won't yours? Maybe because they know that you'll throw them under the bus if it means that you can get yours...

[jdustu]

OK fine... lets do it your way. Pay them their pensions, don't cut any union compensation... and then in 6 months when the American car companies are all out of business (Chap 11 and then Chap 7) and NO ONE HAS A PENSION OR A JOB, Ill give you and our parents a big thumbs up.

My way? The only thing I said was that we shouldn't be taking pensions from retirees, compensation that was already earned. I didn't say anything about not cutting current compensation.

And what the heck do my parents have to do with anything?

[DBK]

All irrelevant now. Strap in for the ride.

[86CamaroZ28]

All irrelevant now. Strap in for the ride.

already strapped in. :cry: i can "stay afloat" for now. BUT how the fuck am I going to sell my boat this spring when no one can afford to buy it? :crap:





EDIT: Oh wait, Im a retard for "living beyond my means". Right?

[patman]

All irrelevant now. Strap in for the ride.

looks that way...:punchball

[Fryguy302]

already strapped in. :cry: i can "stay afloat" for now. BUT how the fuck am I going to sell my boat this spring when no one can afford to buy it? :crap:

EDIT: Oh wait, Im a retard for "living beyond my means". Right?

Just remember what you posted on this topic before, when you knew everything:


if you can't find a job that will just get you by then obviously you've had some poor life planning in the past and present. if it takes you 6 months to find a job that pays the bills on time then obviously you aren't looking hard enough. that or you need to re-evaluate your budget and make some changes.

[outlawss]

This situation is fubar for everyone. I dont care what industry your in, this has impact on it. :punchball

corey

[82hatch]

We're all screwed.

[natzke4]

The irony of this situation is...All of the election anti liberal people just had their people slap them in the face. The republicans once again come through for the average Joe.

[Bigslim]

My grandmother is a GM retiree... retired in '93 with 34 years in.

I've sat and talked with her about how much she made when she got hired in. A whopping 31K a year. What did she end with? Over 130K a year with out any overtime or options.

So let's take the last 10 years of her working times, worth at least 1 million right there. Take the other 24 years -- I'm sure they add up to more than 2 million. Then add the options in, and then her current pension.. Wow talk about a lot of money.

Or how about my father, who has had many years as a skilled trades for GM raking in 115K+ (One year was almost 160K with overtime and 1 patent bonus). Was hired in @ 42K a year back in 1981. Finished at just under 70K a year. But as everyone knows, when the times were good, overtime was flying out the door as if it was going out of style.

Again, I really don't care about either of them in a financial term in comparison to me and my generation) and how they live. My grandmother is 70ish (I forget exactly) and has made GREAT decisions in her life and will have no problems at all taking her 2-4 vacations a year along with owning a home here in MI, and a home in FL. My father, didn't make some so great decision, but still has a condo that is paid off and just got 70K from GM on a buy out. I think he'll be fine for a while.

How old are you? Where do you live?

I am 24, own my own house, luckily don't have kids, but when I lose my job at the big 3, who is going to pay my house note? I guess I'll just have to call my grandma to pay it for me. :yeah right:

These example are not just in my family... everyone was doing it. There is a reason that 300K houses in the metro detroit area were flying off the shelves over the last 10 years.
First off, if your grandmother made $130,000 in one years without overtime she was not hourly. Hourly people don't make this kind of money.

Second, if she was salary she was part of the decision making that ran the company. The salary make the decisions, hourly doesn't.

Third, my dad retired from Ford about 15 years ago. He was hourly and in his best year he only made $70,000. He had a family and bills. So now he has a pension that he lives on. Every year they take more from the retiries. It is getting harder and harder for him to make it. So don't give me this crap about people should be set.

I work at Ford and believe me we have given up a lot. We have had no raises in the last two contracts. We have the "Two-Tier" pay in effect that brings in new workers at half of what was usually paid. We have bigger co-pays on our insurance. We have lost many jobs and have many plants closed. Our pay is now on parity with the Asian trans-plants here in this country. So give me a break about how we be able to live without pensions. You need to be educated.

[nitrousrick]

Just remember what you posted on this topic before, when you knew everything:

Kids say the darndest things. :lol:

I always tell my dad I wish I knew now what I thought I knew when I was 18! :D

[x4bngr]

I believe when any of the Big 3 go bankrupt their pension liability would be passed on to a government entity that would assume the pensions and possibly pay them back at a reduced rate to the pensioner.

So for pensioners, the best option might be bankruptcy for the Big 3. That is, if they want to keep at least some of the pension benefits.

[dirtybird]

YouTube - REM End Of The World As We Know It (And I feel Fine).

[CableGuy]

First off, if your grandmother made $130,000 in one years without overtime she was not hourly. Hourly people don't make this kind of money.

Second, if she was salary she was part of the decision making that ran the company. The salary make the decisions, hourly doesn't.

Third, my dad retired from Ford about 15 years ago. He was hourly and in his best year he only made $70,000. He had a family and bills. So now he has a pension that he lives on. Every year they take more from the retiries. It is getting harder and harder for him to make it. So don't give me this crap about people should be set.

I work at Ford and believe me we have given up a lot. We have had no raises in the last two contracts. We have the "Two-Tier" pay in effect that brings in new workers at half of what was usually paid. We have bigger co-pays on our insurance. We have lost many jobs and have many plants closed. Our pay is now on parity with the Asian trans-plants here in this country. So give me a break about how we be able to live without pensions. You need to be educated.


Correct.

Correct, hourly sits around and reads magazines, and sometimes will tighten a few bolts. ( CRASH, where you at?? flamesuit on :lol:... J/K)

Hell 70K in a time when houses were 70K, today we're lucky to make 40K and find a house under 100K unless you wanna live in the ghetto.

:cry: Deal with it. At least you have a job. As I said in my last post. Lets bitch and moan about what "we" might lose because "we" might be getting screwed, or "we" can all be with out a job.

But anyways, it looks like what you wanted came true, luckily you work for Ford so you might be OK. Unlike many other who work for GM or Chrysler who might not be so, OK. At least the retiree's will be taken care of... who cares about all the active employees.

[hangemhigh]

well, i've been in dealerships for over 30 years. believe me, we're never guaranteed anything. the saying is, you're only as good as your last month. pension? shit 401k's have only been around our end of the business for maybe 20 years? guess the big 3 should have been banking thieves!!!!! those mother-fuckers in the senate don't have a fucking clue what's going on in the real world! no one's mentioned the dealer body, how about the people there, who have been the backbone of this industry for years! there's a little more to this business than just the auto workers...

Trunk, feel free to chime in if you wish....

[natzke4]

A lot of people are about the be F'ed up. Thank your Conservatives for that.

[lab1702]

A lot of people are about the be F'ed up. Thank your Conservatives for that.

Interesting piece on UAW vs the senate...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/OPINION03/812120397

No, I'm not gonna copy paste, if detnews.com is blocked at your job, I can't imagine motownmuscle.com not being blocked too! :lol:

[ReiKo]

Interesting piece on UAW vs the senate...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/OPINION03/812120397

No, I'm not gonna copy paste, if detnews.com is blocked at your job, I can't imagine motownmuscle.com not being blocked too! :lol:

Slacker! :icon_bigg


They failed repeatedly to organize the foreign-owned auto plants proliferating down South, even now.

Their political action committee pumped millions -- $1,918,450 this election cycle alone, to be exact -- into the congressional campaigns of Democrats and only $12,500 into Republicans, according to opensecrets.org. In their 1999 contract, they won Election Day off and used it to back their (generally Democratic) candidates, a source of recurring irritation among the southern GOP stalwarts.

They ignored the Republicans, even auto state Republicans, who represent the so-called "New American Manufacturers" in places such as Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama.

Those are the same states whose senators stood astride the $14 billion auto bailout bill Thursday saying, "No" -- imperiling life as generations of United Auto Workers have known it.


Now a federal bailout for Detroit's automakers appears close to dead, delivering a crushing blow to a Michigan economy reeling from high unemployment, skyrocketing home foreclosures and sagging tax revenue. The obstructionists: southern Republicans determined to use a financial crisis to rework corporate balance sheets and rewrite collective bargaining agreements on their terms and timetables.

Paybacks can be hell when business meets politics, as union leaders, their members and tens of thousands of folks associated with the Detroit-based auto industry are seeing clearly in the wrangling to craft an emergency bill to throw lifelines to beleaguered General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC.

Stripped bare and put in the regional context of union vs. nonunion and domestic vs. foreign, the toughened conditions pushed by Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., are legislative cruise missiles aimed directly at Detroit's business model, the UAW's Solidarity House and 70 years of Big Three bargaining tradition.

Radical change for the UAW
How could they be anything else? Immediately match the pay and benefits of foreign-owned automakers operating in the South, his terms say. Reduce your expectations for Big Three contributions to the barely funded retiree health care fund and take some in stock. Eliminate the Jobs Bank and supplemental unemployment benefits.

And if UAW and company bargainers can't get there by a March deadline -- along with concessions from bondholders, management, shareholders and suppliers -- GM and Chrysler must seek federal bankruptcy protection like almost every other private-sector player would under similar circumstances.

That's tough-minded business, to be sure. Understandable, too, given Detroit's glacial pace of change. It's also a naked attempt to use the credit-induced crisis swallowing the Detroit Three to radically restructure their bloated labor costs, rework their debt-laden balance sheets in 60 days or less and, perhaps, put one or more of them into bankruptcy, if not liquidation.

"I don't think the southern senators understand this isn't a Japanese and Big Three thing," says Gregory Raymond, a member of UAW Local 372 who works at Chrysler's Trenton Engine plant. "It's an American thing. All auto companies use the same suppliers and they're all going to suffer if the supply base goes down."

Except Corker & Co. don't buy it and I'm not sure they care. To him and Republican Senate colleagues such as Alabama's Richard Shelby and Kentucky's Mitch McConnell, the minority leader, the desperation of Detroit and the UAW vindicates the superiority of the nonunion, lower-cost, foreign-owned auto industry growing in Alabama and Tennessee even as Big Auto stagnates in the union strongholds of Michigan and Ohio.

Like the green Democrats in the House eager to coerce Detroit into hybridizing entire product portfolios irrespective of market demands, capital needs or oil prices, the southern Republicans see a win for the home team in subjecting the northern competition to the corporate equivalent of chemo: To survive, endure the painful therapy.

No unions, or more unions?
Detroit Bubble, meet the Bigger America. Cynics might suspect parallel agendas in the South's legislative hammer -- agreement on cost parity by March or bankruptcy. How? Because the auto bosses have long wanted to break the union, the thinking goes, and the southerners are happy to oblige.

But there's another possible outcome here, one maybe overlooked by a GOP wing in smackdown mode. Contrary to the tired stereotypes coming daily from Washington, President Ron Gettelfinger's UAW is well on its way to helping Detroit's automakers achieve wage and benefit parity with foreign-owned rivals operating in the United States.

Come next month, amid recession anxiety, job losses and widespread distrust of business, the union and others like it are poised to reap the political benefit of having bigger Democratic majorities in the House and Senate and a labor-friendly Democrat in the White House.

The president-elect and the congressional Democrats all have signaled a willingness to pass labor's top legislative priority -- the so-called "card check" legislation, which would essentially abolish secret ballots and make organizing easier. Everywhere.

If it passes, I'm betting the first stops on the UAW's southern swing will be auto plants in Shelby's Alabama and Corker's Tennessee, soon to be home to Volkswagen AG's first U.S. plant in a generation.

Let the paybacks begin.

[DBK]

I'll tell you this though: the moment the Employee Freedom of Choice Act passes, the fuckwads in Alabama and every other non-union auto state are gonna get a taste of their own medicine.

When all you have to do is check a box on a card anonymously to unionize, it won't take long.

[CableGuy]

Good read... I love this part:



The president-elect and the congressional Democrats all have signaled a willingness to pass labor's top legislative priority -- the so-called "card check" legislation, which would essentially abolish secret ballots and make organizing easier. Everywhere.

If it passes, I'm betting the first stops on the UAW's southern swing will be auto plants in Shelby's Alabama and Corker's Tennessee, soon to be home to Volkswagen AG's first U.S. plant in a generation.

[Slowmaro305]

Here is my post from another board where alot of people not living in this area wanted the companies to file bankruptcy.


If GM Files chapter 11 it will quickly turn into chapter 7 and they will be done liquidated and sold to china or india.

1. Majority of the public (not car people like us, and we are a small number) will not buy cars from a bankrupt supplier. An already shrinking market share will reduce drastically.

2. Suppliers who are currently on a net 30 or net 45 payment term will demand COD on delivery of parts for fear they will not get paid by the big 3. This will mean lots more cash flow needed by the big 3 to pay for parts from suppliers. Gm will not be able to keep this up for long.

3. The senario in point 2 will cause a majority of suppliers, Big tier 1's, down through tier 2 and 3 suppliers to go out of business. They were already struggling but used to be able to borrow with net 30-45 receivables as collatteral from the bank. These are no longer honored anyway but wouldnt matter if requesting COD. Eventually the supply base will go under.

4. Without a supply base to make parts and consumers to buy cars from bankrupt auto suppliers good by American Auto Industry and Millions more jobs indirectly involved that are not even being thought about.


5. All those jobs that everyone has and thinks is safe because they are not tied to the industry will soon start to struggle. Drycleaners, restaraunts, party stores near plant locations, housecleaners, just to name a few. If you think your job has no tie to the auto industry maybe you should investigate what jobs your customers hold and see if they lose there jobs will i be able to stay in business.

[nitrousrick]

Here is my post from another board where alot of people not living in this area wanted the companies to file bankruptcy.

Link? I'd like to see what other "car" people are saying around the country.

[Slowmaro305]

Link? I'd like to see what other "car" people are saying around the country.

Corvette Forum in Off Topic. Good amount of people over there from all over the US. Most are only concerned with what will happen to my warranty and where will i find parts for my car if they go under.

[Slowmaro305]

It seems to be a going trend in other areas where people just cant seem to grasp the effect this will have.

Thats why i have been responding with the "If you dont think it effects you start asking all your customers what they do for a living"

[natzke4]

Being a former corvette owner and Corvette Forum member...most of those people on the Corvette Forum are on the higher end of society and could careless about the average joe.

[Slowmaro305]

Being a former corvette owner and Corvette Forum member...most of those people on the Corvette Forum are on the higher end of society and could careless about the average joe.

I agree, and I mostly lurk over there but when i was reading one of the threads i just wanted to put my 2 cents in.